But now it just seems like the ”underground” is just another layer of mainstream. There are so many shitty indie, freak folk, and electro bands out there cashing in on their indie cred and crowding out more unique artists. It's really sickening. Maybe it's just living in Portland, but hipsters have made it that much harder to find good music. The internet has been a blessing and a curse.

When I firsy moved there, back in 97 or 98 there was a good 90s alternative radio station that was subsequently sold and reformatted and my precious Beck, Beastie Boys, Talking Heads, and so on was replaced with a dirge of post-grunge and nu-metal. I spent too long listening to bands like Korn, Staind, and so on for lack of alternatives. It was through dogged searching after discovering NIN that I found good industrial and hanging out with the burnouts that I discovered experimental music.

Yeah, it felt like Thirlwell was so strung out that he had lost sight of who he was. And I understand where you're coming from - I spent my teenage years stuck in Missouri listening to the crap that permeates the midwest until I stumbled backwards into good music. I've got friends who stayed to go to school and got trapped there. If you can get out, you should.

I'm just not sure what you are referring to with the term - like psycho lyrics or vocals or what. I mean, his three previous albums (four, including Dirtdish) were more psychotic lyrically and his delivery on Thaw was waaay more out there. But musically it just feels like a cluttered mess of his style and the noise rock and sludge of his contemporaries/collaboraters. Like a precursor to York. Are you referring to bands like Unsane, The Jesus Lizard, and Acid Bath?

Psycho rock?

Just looked at the track list, Downfall is pretty skipable and Steal Your Life Away is meh. I like Deaf and Ache, but Thirlwell clearly hadn't developed his own style at that point, so much is borrowed from James Chance and the Contortions.

I like Mortgage, Hammer Falls, Friend or Foe, Verklemmt, Mutapump, Slung (but it's overrated), Mighty Whitey, (same), and Take It Outside Godboy is all right I guess. The only other tracks I remember are See Ya Later, which is totally unmemorable and They Are Not So True, which is shit. I'm not even sure if I like Godboy, it's intro is way too long and there isn't much payoff. And Slung goes on way too long for being sour grapes, but I guess that could be the point?

Thanks for the add and the recomendations. I started with Hole(foetus), which was pretty cool. Foetus is kinda hard to describe really. Kinda a rockability thing with dark humor. some reason reminds me of the butthole surfers(although he predates the albums I got of them by about 5 years) so they really probably sound similar to him. I check some later releases of him soon.

I've heard tracks here and there, they seem fun. What album should I start with?

To be fair, I haven't logged onto myspace since 2010. I wouldn't write their eulogy just yet unless you have other evidence.

Oh, derp. Check out The Deserts of Traun here: http://www.last.fm/music/The+Deserts+of+Tr%C3%A4un They have released a damn good instrumental album that serves as the score to an unreleased 70s-style animated sci-fi film (think Ralph Bakshi). There's a trailer on youtube. The music is like a mix of prog rock, electronica, and jazz with occasional elements of black metal and country. That might ease the pain. I highly recommend.

I will be super bummed out if that was it from them. I haven't found anything else like them... Maybe Tub Ring's The Great Filter or Dan Deacon's Spiderman of the Rings. It's hard to find that blend of variety and cohesion they pulled off on GBI.

is it business time?

Like I said, it took a long time for Swans to grow on me. Michael Gira lacks the charisma of Thirlwell or Nick Cave, who I could most closely compare him - in the 80s there was a real sense of nihilism and misanthropy that I would attribute to all three, but Gira lacked the gallows humor of the others. Ah well. I sympathize with your position regarding people to talk to about music - I moved here from an area where liking Primus was adventurous taste in music. Here, I'm mostly surrounded by hipsters but I have enough friends with good taste that I get a steady stream of interesting conversation. No one that appreciates Foetus like I do, but I like it better that way. My love of Foetus is my own.

So what is your opinion of one of Thirlwell's older collaborators, Michael Gira? I had listened to the Swans a handful of times and mostly written them off as an average post-punk band until this last month when they really blossomed for me. Now I think MFWGMUARTTS is one of the best albums of the past decade.

re: Mike DeStefano. Contact me on FB and I'll hook you up with mp3 files of Mike's comedy album. That would be the best way to figure out what he was about.

Haha, thank you sir.

nonono... the duck is omniscient, I tell you!!!

hehe. Cause The Duck is having this little subscriber's rectangle in the top left corner of her avatar pic. I've fallen into this trap myself.

The Duck knows all.

Hi. Saw you peeping.;o)

("I'm going to hunt down and kill everyone who describes 'Hide' as industrial") To be fair, I think You're Trying To Break Me can accurately be described as industrial rock. None of the other tracks are, though, unless you count Concrete as proto-industrial, though technically it's ... uh ... musique concrete.

Love took a while to grow on me and now it's in my top three, so Hide still has a chance. I figured Inflikkt was a girl more from the tone of her shouts than her androgynous pic - though tone is pretty hard to discern online. They just read as a very girly brand of snarky to me. Unrelated, when I get my next paycheck, I'm going to pick up Sink, one of the last Thirlwell albums I need to acquire. Then it's just the Clint Ruin/Lydia Lunch EPs (sigh...) and Petal to the Metal since I'm not interested in tracking down the Baby Zizanie vinyl and Hydroze Plus sounded boring. Oh, I think I've mentioned him before, but have you heard Nils Frykdahl (Idiot Flesh, Sleepytime Gorilla Meseum)? I ask because the latest albums by two bands that he plays/sings backup for, Charming Hostess and Faun Fables, both released amazing albums this last year. The Bowls Project and Light of a Vaster Dark respectively. Either band's lead could be the female Nick Cave. I highly recommend both.

... Not only that, but Foetus hardly ever sticks to even THAT genre, rendering the majority of his work describable only as "industrial-meets-...." Could be "meets chain gang shouting blues," could be "meets movie soundtracks," could be "meets surf music," could be "meets swing jazz," could be "meets surf-spy," could be "meets hard rock," could be "meets disco," could be "meets novelty music," could be "meets hardcore punk" -- but it is never, ever, EVER simply 'industrial dance music.' So if you're some girl all dressed in black, please keep this in mind before you lay down the green. And I'm talking about paying money, not fucking a golf course."

It's grown on me, but it still has a long way to go before I'd call it my favorite. Mark Prindle's reviews of Deaf & Ache especially had me laughing uncontrollably. And there's a paragraph in his review of Nail that would have been pretty apropos for your little tête à tête with Inflikkt. "However, you need to understand something if you've never heard Foetus before. Yes, he was an Industrial Music pioneer - and yes, he clearly influenced Ministry and by extension probably pretty much every Industrial artist out there today - but if you're looking for straightforward industrial dance music a la Nitzer Ebb, Skinny Puppy, etc etc, you're looking in the WAY wrong place. The 'industrial' elements of Foetus' music are not akin to the synth-goth dance beats and punk-metal riffs that most young people associate with the genre: his music is industrial in the traditional sense, i.e. ACTUALLY THROWING SHIT AT METAL AND RECORDING IT. ...

Heh. I was reading the Mark Prindle reviews of Foetus albums last night and had to, fucking HAD TO listen to some Thirlwell. He had some interesting new perspectives, both positive and negative - his criticisms were especially entertaining - while I don't necessarily agree with some of them, I do relish seeing another fan truly tear apart something I enjoy with an insider's perspective and a bit of wit. And reading a scathing review of York is very, very visceral. I'd quote selected passages, but I'd flood your shoutbox. Instead, I'll just link you to the site. http://www.markprindle.com/foetus.htm

Oy. A good friend of mine is studying neuropsychology and any conversation we get into that even approaches science often grinds down to some sort of pedantic argument about technical terms versus layman's terms. (Particularly if I use a phrase that has a specific scientific definition and several other widely accepted definitions and he will only accept the specific scientific definition when I clearly meant something different.) I've begun to adhere to more and more fantastical ideas to combat his obnoxiousness. I made the argument that scientists have a vested interest in proving God doesn't exist because if he did, as an omnipotent being, he could arbitrarily change the rules of science, making them irrelevant. I think I'll take up phrenology next.

I think Whales and Cops are pretty damn good, better than Man Man, who don't stand out too much to from the legion of Mr. Bungle-influenced bands that came out this past decade. Not that I don't like them or bands that ape Mr. Bungle - I have a soft spot for Tub Ring and occasionally listen to Dog Fashion Disco's Rated R, and both of those bands owe the majority of their sound to Mike Patton, Trevor Dunn, and Trey Spruance. In fact, I'd recommend Tub Ring... kind of. They sound like a punk version of Mr. Bungle... but more of the pop punk side of punk. Not egregiously, they're no blink 182, but they're definitely not The Damned or The Circle Jerks. Also, have you heard Pere Ubu? They're like the missing link between Captain Beefheart and the Pixies (at least on their first two albums.) And what are you majoring in, anyway?

I get what you're saying. I like select metal here and there - I pick from the various sub-genres per my whim, usually seeking artists who explore diverse sounds that break from the traditional confines of their peers - and I hate the pretension of metal purists - someone who is a death metal purist would disavow me for liking most of the metal that I listen to, same for a power metal purist, etc. These people are more into proficiency than artistry and don't see that what they're listening to sounds exactly the same by and large. Something like disliking Opeth because they either a) have garnered some popularity outside of the death metal scene or b) for not being death metal in the strictest sense is something that bugs me. And while we're on the topic of hipsters - whom I despise - I have a bit of a fondness for annoying hipster electronic music like Whales and Cops and would add Dan Deacon and Fuck Buttons to my recommendations list... if you're into that sort of thing.

A metal hipster? Does he listen to Sunn o))) and Wolves in the Throne Room and stuff like that? (And what the hell is so sacrilegious about Opeth?) Nurse With Wound is a band that "doesn't play well with others" - you can't really throw them onto a shuffle or just grab a random album and toss it on casually - they require a certain amount of dedicated non-participation. It's like mood music for self-immolation.

...(Did I mention I'm longwinded?) I love all of David Yow's bands - The Jesus Lizard, Scratch Acid, and Qui. Noisy post punk goodness - especially The Jesus Lizard (Duane Denison is a badass). Um... Ulver is a really interesting band. Initially labeled as a black metal band because their first three albums were "The Black Metal Trilogie" even though only two were black metal and one of those seems to be a joke at black metal fans' expense, they went really experimental with their William Blake album before moving into trip hop and various other experiments. Strange journey. Nurse With Wound? Bizarre dada sound collages that have wrongly been labeled industrial... occasionally industrial, but the best "industrial" bands are only occasionally industrial. Brian Eno's first two solo albums are amazing - some of Robert Fripp's best guitar work. Slough Feg is theatrical metal band that does concept albums about obscure 70s computer games. I can also recommend specific albums from said bands

... but Opeth's vocalist impresses me. When he does the death metal growl, he a) displays range, b) is understandable, and c) uses his vocals to fill out the guitar sound. It's almost like it's taking the place of the bass. Neeeext, the Melvins? Aside from being the godfathers of grunge, sludge, doom, and a half dozen other genres to pop up over the last twenty seven years, they've put out an eclectic and playful catalog over the years - but I sense you've probably heard them before. Charles Mingus is a criminally under-rated hard bop composer, band leader, bass player, and pianist. Likewise Don Cherry, who was Ornette Coleman's soloist but has had an extensive career on his own as well. Lately I've been listening to a ton of Killing Joke and Neurosis (the original post-metal band) having just discovered them. SoCalled is a Canadian DJ who blends hip hop with klezmer music. I've been digging The Budos Band, who sound like a mix of jazz and 70s detective movie soundtrack funk. ...

Ooh, I love recommending music. Just quickly running through your library, I don't see Secret Chiefs 3 or Estradasphere. SC3 is the new project from the *other* major creative force from Mr. Bungle, Trey Spruance - well, it's actually his 8 bands who release their work under one title. Each band also has all the same members. Estradasphere is the previous band of a bunch of the guys from SC3. Both bands are pretty eclectic, think instrumental Mr. Bungle without Mike Patton's spaz stuff. Um, Idiot Flesh was a pretty cool avant garde band, and those guys have been involved in a bunch of other bands like Charming Hostess (a capella Israeli music mixed with beatboxing), Sleepytime Gorilla Museum (Idiot Flesh's doomy extension), and Faun Fables. Dälek is dark, claustrophobic, noisy hip-hop influenced by bands like Einsturzende Neubauten. Opeth is a band lodged halfway between 70s prog rock (minus the high pitched vocals) and death metal - I'm not a fan of the growl most of the time, but...

Hola, amigo. I was hoping to check out your library, but it's mostly empty... what does it mean that you reset your plays? Did you do that manually or did you wind up with a long sequence of 9's and have it roll over to 0?

Not in the shops for some reason, and the postal service has let me down with the last two items I have ordered so.......

heh heh, are you checking out some Foetus references? I got curious about Magma and Cardiacs recently. Are they any good? (don't know both of them)

well, maybe there's a chance that some Ministry or NIN fans discover Foetus through the industrial reference.

argh,industrial...

did you get the sticker? (i only have the mp3s.) i am keen to put it on my bag.

ah cool, so you really like it. so far i think it's great, too. let's see if the album will have the long-lasting addictiveness of masterpieces like HOLE or LOVE...

I see HIDE has arrived. How do you like it?

Good to see a non music nerd with a liking for Foetus & The Residents.

Foetus! Soap&Skin is known in the US?

Hey, I don't know if it's legal but if you'll create this website please inform me, because I'll be very pleased to know he's lyrics, more precisely those of "Time marches on". Thanks and have a good night.

Whales and Cops have a slight recommended records/R.I.O/ This Heat feel to them.

Thanks man, I'll check them out.

I can't tell if it's a sarcastic attack on me or what.

Or it could be 'hey guys I'm defending the mainstream, am I not postmodern and incredibly clever with irony comin' outta my ears'.

I don't hate mainstream music anymore than I like non-mainstream music. Don't get your panties in a bunch just because I insulted Korn, Slipknot, and Nickelback. My last.fm list does not display most of what I listen to because I use last.fm to discover new music, I don't scrobble my playlists.

My comment was directed at Tilaton, at the comment he left below mine, actually...:o)