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MoonlitAutumn
"no matter how much your influenced by a genre if you don't play that sound your not a part of that scene" When it comes to Goth that rule really get's pushed aside. A prime example would be Sopor Aeternus. Many people in the goth scene wouldn't flinch if you labeled them a goth band. Despite the fact that they sound nothing like Bauhaus. Nor do they share similar influences. Yet, Sopor are still considered Goth. This happens a lot within the Goth scene. The whole argument of a band having to "sound like a goth band" only get's thrown out there when the scene wants to distance itself from something they deem too mainstream or is associated with a group they see as "undesirable" (i.e. metalheads, fans of Marilyn Manson). My argument isn't to say goth and metal are the same. I'm saying that there's definite over lap between the two in terms of fanbase, influences, and in aesthetic. Which a lot of Goths aren't willing to admit because of the previous reasons listed.
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Toma400
The thing here is that "gothic" =/= "gothic rock". Gothic is an aesthetic movement, which 1. can influence any kind of music, from ambient (Dead Can Dance), electronic, to metal and rock - as far as it's not denied by definition of genre, but I believe even rap could be gothic if people tried to experiment more with its sound; 2. has roots in post-punk also, so gothic rock - being quite different sometimes - isn't the only correct label. Just, we should only be careful to not have too wide boundaries (which happens for "symphonic" metal mislabeled as gothic metal) nor too narrow (excluding neoclassical, darkwave etc. which are typical gothic genres) Also, looking deeper into discussion below, I agree also that even if inspired, metal should stay as metal, not to mess rock part of gothic. There's gothic metal label existing for such things. But as said - "gothic" is wider thing; like "hip-hop" doesn't mean only rap - even in music it exists in electronic genre called "breakbeat".
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edwardsdistress
Sopor isn't goth, though. The music is mainly folk/neoclassical dark ambient/Neue Deutsche Todeskunst. I don't understand why people keep calling her music goth when it sounds nothing like it; only the aesthetic appears that way. And that's not to say don't listen to her, I like some songs myself, but the majority of her music has nothing to do with post-punk.
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Silanis
"Many bands don't write music to be part of a certain genre or "scene" - they just sort of end up there because they play in similar styles and take influence from similar bands."- and isn't that what defines a musical genre? Someone started to play music in a certain way and influenced other artists to play in a similiar one. In the long run this creates a "scene" of bands with a similiar style and fans who like them, because of how they sound. It is true that some metal bands had strong goth influences- but they are still metal not only for the fact of having different musical origins, but their sound isn'tmostly liked or shared among the gothic community. Even the gothic metal bands like TOF and Paradise Lost, who have the strongest goth influences, aren't related to the goth genre because of their fans coming mostly from the metal scene. And these bands also have their identification with the metal scene and probably influenced other metal (and not goth) bands as well.
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chouchter
That's not quite what I'm saying. I don't think it's right to say that any genre of music has a certain "formula" - just seems too black and white. Many bands don't write music to be part of a certain genre or "scene" - they just sort of end up there because they play in similar styles and take influence from similar bands. That's likely why many so-called "goth" bands completely reject the label - they care more about the music itself than what genre people are calling it. And then you have the bands that never really fit comfortably within any genre. There's always bands that push the boundaries, go beyond the defined boundaries of whatever genre, and create something different. Eventually the whole concept of genre breaks down, and everyone's still arguing about it. The whole argument of "this is goth and that is not" has been done before, and I'm not trying to recreate it here, just share some of my own thoughts. I'm well aware of the differences between them.
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trad-goth
Metal has soo many different sub genres IE Speed, Death, Thrash, Doom, Black, Power but in a sence they all follow the same formula just like a car does only difference is different type of body work. Yes there is alot of metal bands influenced by goth rock but some people think being influenceed gives them the right to tag the unrelated genre as we all know no matter how much your influenced by a genre if you don't play that sound your not a part of that scene
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chouchter
@trad-goth Yes, metal and gothic rock are two different genres and are obviously characterised by different styles. However, I think you are stereotyping metal too much. Metal is much more diverse than gothic rock (excluding related genres there). There are many different subgenres of metal. Most of them have nothing to do gothic rock at all, but there are some bands that are very clearly influenced by it, particularly within the doom and gothic metal subgenres. Emphasis on the word influenced. Listen to Scarlet Heavens by Katatonia and tell me they're not at all influenced by gothic rock.
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trad-goth
Standard musical fixtures of the Gothic rock sound include "scything, jangly guitar patterns", high-pitched moody basslines that often usurped the melodic role and drum beats that were either hypnotically dirgelike or 'tribal + banshee type wails or deep male vocals. Heavy metal is traditionally characterized by loud distorted guitars, emphatic rhythms, dense bass-and-drum sound, and vigorous vocals. as you can see both have completely different sounds so there is no such thing as an overlap a metal band might take influence from goth but unless it has the goth sound it's just dark metal.
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MoonlitAutumn
@chouchter: This is VERY true. It's interesting how people claim there is no overlap between metal and goth. When, as you eloquently described, there is significant overlap. And for another example just look at Creaming Jesus. They're a perfect blend between the typical stylings of trad goth as well as metal. It's just that many Goths have this bizarre desire to keep Goth away from other styles in the alternative world. Punk, metal, and hip hop are incredibly diverse today because their scenes have been a hospitable environment for blending with other styles and general experimentation with the music. Goth seems to wall itself off from pretty much everything. Nothing is "troo" enough unless it's completely copying/regurgitating the style of the old bands. I wonder how long the Goth subculture will last with this type of isolationist mentality?
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starxnoxstar
Type O Negative is the closest Metal Has ever come to being "Goth Metal" as they actually had some post-punk influence. [3]
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Ce shout n'est pas disponible.
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clytie_hizashi
As I type this, the header image is of a Visual Kei band. Haha, oh lord. -_-"
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Alexey_Gabriel
The 69 Eyes - recent albums have been weak, but voice is fairly good, like the first albums. At least that's my opinion.
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oscar_wildecat
I have listened to some 69 eyes stuff recently. It's true, some of their songs obviously have some gothic influence. Most of their music is shit though :D
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ultravox82
Bueno, solo puedo decir que agrupaciones como Evanescence o With Temptation no se les puede catalogar como rock gotico...eso me da mucha pena
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EternitysSun
Mmm...I've got issues with some of the artists tagged with this, but it's still a hell of a lot better than the gothic rock tag.
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mirafirefly
Why are the 69 Eyes, London After Midnight and Type O Negative in Top Artists? 69 Eyes is crap for silly 14-year-olds, Type O Neg is like 69 Eyes but more metalllzzz, and London After Midnight is just the worst thing ever. .... ...at least Bella Morte's not up there.
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Massenmord
Hi, folks! Join new creepy group: http://www.lastfm.ru/group/THG+-+Trash+Horror+Group
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Massenmord
Hi, folks! Join new creepy group: http://www.lastfm.ru/group/THG+-+Trash+Horror+Group
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