Here is a transcript of a debate that I had with Apostate JoAnne Cremer in a MySpace group. These are taken from several topics, as you will probably be able to tell as you read it. Please read and judge for yourselves:

Apostle JoAnne Cremer wrote:
Dear Friends,

I would like to share the truth with you concerning the perspective of God as concerning gender, and females fulfilling a role in the spiritual government of God. When the Church became disconnected from the Headship of Christ, many false teachings prevailed which cast a shadow of shame upon the gospel, upon the gender of women and upon the ministry of the 5 callings. Second 8th Week Apostles are restoring to the Church the truth of the gospel and returning to the Church the many gifts that were lost or titrated with the traditions of carnality. The statues and judgments that Apostle Paul set in place to deal with a cultural problem have been errantly interpreted as a new covenant commandment. The Church for years has been lacking true, teaching apostles to set the foundation of truth in each believer's heart, and as result, each approached the scriptures with their own private interpretations.

Please take note in this lesson of the difference between the statues, precepts, commandments, judgments, ordinances, etc. so that the Church may once and for all, understand that God does not discriminate against women obeying His commandment to steward the grace of God, and to respond to His call and selection to government. While we are on the subject of callings, I want to reiterate here that God has a calling FOR EVERY BELIEVER to one of the 5 offices of spiritual government.

If you are in a place where you have been told that you cannot be a part of spiritual government, we invite you to the Apostles' University. We'll train you and equip you and confirm you.

If you already know your calling, but lack accredited education on how to fulfill the calling, the Apostles of Second 8th Week stand ready to equip you with the blueprint for faith and give you the mentorship and ministry training & skills you need. We do not discriminate against gender, race, denomination, etc. We are here to FREELY give what we have FREELY received. Our education services are always given at no cost and will empower you to serve God in Christ's simplicity, live the life of Christ in His fullness, and train others to do the same.

To enroll, simply visit www.second8thweek.com

Yours in Christ,
Apostle JoAnne Cremer

The lesson below is copyrighted and trademark protected under:
Second 8th Week®, S8W®, IDCCST® and Intelligent Design for Christ-Centered Spiritual Transformation®. May the Lord grant grace for understanding to all.

S8W® Apostles' University Lesson called
"Concerning Women in the Church"

The apostle Paul admonished Timothy to, "Study to show yourself approved, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth," II Tim.2:15.

What does it mean to 'rightly divide' the word of truth? The scriptures were written to provide a record of God's communication with man. The scriptures are divided into areas that address:

1. The present covenant that man is under.
2. The previous covenant man was under.
3. The covenant that is to come.
4. The commandments of each covenant.
5. The statutes of each covenant.
6. The precepts of each covenant.
7. The judgments of each covenant.
8. The testimonies of each covenant.
9. The ordinances of each covenant.
10. The law of each covenant.
11. The types and shadows and how they are fulfilled.
12. The doctrine of our faith.
God's law reveals all the doctrines which a believer must use to fully identify with the PRESENT COVENANT. The law contains the commandments, statutes, precepts, judgments, testimonies and ordinances.

Commandments: Identifies the operation of God that we must be active with for our faith; the ordered activity of our faith.

Statutes: Are the laws which cover a task or policy restricted by time.

Precepts: The laws which govern a Christian's moral activity.

Judgments: That which the Spirit initiates for the saints to do at the time, setting a policy for our activity based on present circumstance.

Testimonies: Are the acts of God; that which we witness or reflect on to testify of God's involvement; can be oral or written.

Ordinances: A rite or ceremony which is accepted for that place. A law which is restricted only to that area by the apostle.

Doctrines: What we identify with in our faith; collectively, all doctrine within a system is called truth for that system.

What are the GENDER commandments of the New Covenant? What is the doctrine concerning gender? When the apostle Paul wrote in Gal.3:28 that, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither MALE nor FEMALE; for you are all ONE in Christ Jesus" was this a commandment, a statute, a precept, a judgment, testimony, or ordinance?

In order to rightly divide the word of God we have to know what to look for. Many people say that this scripture simply means that male and female both receive equal inheritance. Yes, this is true, but this scripture says, "...you are all one IN CHRIST." What is IN Christ, merely an inheritance, or does He also mediate the present covenant, and represent His work through the gifts, callings, and graces of God?

In rightly dividing this scripture we must look at the present covenant that Christ is mediating and how He represents the work of this covenant.

The reference in this scripture to being 'IN CHRIST' tells us that God erased the gender lines at the point of access which is Christ. Therefore, all that is in Him is gender free; what is in Christ is not limited by gender any more than it is limited by race.

Thus the commandment is universal, and deals with all believers for all time. The operation of the Spirit will continue to function by this law, and so should the government of God within the Church.

Whether male or female, all believers can function on an equal basis with what God has made available in Christ. Whether male or female, all can and should prophesy, share dreams or visions, share in the callings, pray, share words of knowledge, etc.

So why did the apostle write, "Let your women keep silence in the Churches; for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law," I Cor.14:34, 35.

Now we must again rightly divide the word of God; for you see, there is never a contradiction within the mystery. We must simply answer the question, "Was this a commandment, a statute, a precept, a judgment, testimony, or ordinance?"

When the apostle John wrote his second epistle he wrote, "The elder unto the elect lady and her children," this was not an isolated letter that was written to an acquaintance, but was addressed to an elder in the assembly which was responsible for the care of the saints. This elder was a woman.

If the scripture in I Cor14:34, 35 were a commandment then it would have been difficult for her to minister, she would not have been allowed to speak in the assembly. So we see that what Paul wrote about "women keeping silent in the Churches" was not a universal commandment, the doctrine of our faith.

If we look at the function which Jesus mediates within the assembly, we again see the things that are 'in Christ', we see the operation of God which is in connection with the covenant (those things which are needed for your sanctification), and we see this commandment, "you may all prophecy one by one," I Cor.14:31; this is the doctrine of our faith because it is in connection with what the Spirit uses to sanctify us.

A woman could not have obeyed this commandment if she is not to speak in the Church. Therefore she would not have had access to the point of transaction that Jesus mediates for her edification. She could not fulfill the commandment that Paul gave in I Cor.14:12, "Even so you, forasmuch as you are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that you may excel to the edifying of the Church," if she had to keep silent.

Therefore, when rightly dividing this word, we see that the admonition for women to keep silence in the Church was not a commandment, but A JUDGMENT -- That which the Spirit initiates for the saints to do at the time, setting a policy for our activity based on present circumstance.

Being two thousand years removed from the problem, which required an apostle to set policy, we have only Church history and cultural traditions to glean from in order to determine what the problem might have been. Since this situation is removed from the normal pattern of the assembly we cannot use this pattern as New Testament doctrine.

Some cultural references to that period of time suggests that the women in the assemblies were separated from the men, therefore, if the wife had a question to ask their husband, they would call out to them, which naturally, would cause a disruption.

Therefore we hear Paul's admonition, "If she will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home; for it is a shame (disruption) for the women to speak (out in this manner) in the Church." We also see here why Paul said, "They are commanded to be under obedience as also says the law." To whom should a woman be in obedience? To her own husband. And this is what the law of God confirms from the beginning of time.

When Christ fulfilled the Law of Moses, and became the law of grace and truth, He did not erase family law. The law of the husband over the wife is still in force.

This is what we also read in I Tim.2:11-14, "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. For I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."

"For Adam was first formed, then Eve. For Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."

To rightly divide the word we have to again ask if this scripture, "Let the woman learn in silence," and, "I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man" was a commandment, a statute, a precept, a judgment, testimony, or ordinance?

We know that there is never a contradiction within the mystery. The commandment that is part of the mystery does not address the role of a woman in the assembly separate than the role of a man. The commandments of the mystery are the doctrines of our faith that cannot be abandoned or changed because they deal with the work of Christ within.

That which edifies the soul of a woman also edifies the soul of a man. The grace of God is unique in that it brings illumination to the soul of both genders in the same way. Truth is unique in that it gives direction to the soul of both genders in the same way.

In fact, regeneration and the renewing of the mind take place in the soul of a woman just as it does in the soul of a man. The signature of course is different, but the tools that sanctify and the activity of faith that justifies us always cause regeneration, whether you are a man or a woman. That's why these commandments of the covenant are not gender specific. So what we see again is the judgment that dealt with a particular problem within that culture at that time.

Timothy was at Corinth, so it is possible that Paul was instructing him concerning the same problem that He had addressed in I Corinthians. When we read, "For I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man..." we have to ask the question again, "When does a man have authority over the woman?" And again we say that a man has authority over the woman in marriage. The law of the husband has rule over the wife, this is family law. This is why the apostle Paul is speaking here of Adam and Eve. They were united as husband and wife.

God's union for a man and a woman must follow the structure of law that He ordained from the beginning. Rom.7:2, "For the woman which has an husband is bound by the law of her husband so long as he lives..." This is what we also read in I Cor.7:39. And in I Pet.3:1-7 we read, "Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord."

We see family law again in Eph.5:22-24, "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord." As the wife follows the policy that God set for the activity of faith, so should she also follow the policy that the husband sets for the family.

"For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the Church ... Therefore as the Church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing." We see here the necessity of government in order to give direction. Just as Christ gives direction to the Church with the goals that He has in mind, so the husband gives direction to the family with the goals that he has in mind, and this is what the wife promotes in his interest.

Family law is different than assembly law. When in the assembly, the wife is under the law of Christ. Yet, if her husband is present she is also under the law of her husband as well. Does the law of the husband apply to spiritual matters or to private matters? To private matter only, and not to spiritual matters. The law of Christ applies to the function of the assembly and her activity with the gifts, callings, and graces of God. The law of her husband applies to personal matters.

THE COVERING

Now we must address the doctrine of 'the covering'. The prevailing, old school of thought has been that a woman, either married or single, needs a covering in order to function in the assembly. This covering is supposed to be the man, any man. In other words, it has been taught that women can participate in the assembly only as long they are in submission to the men that are there. These nonsensical ideas have come from reading I Cor.11:2-16.

We use the word 'doctrine' of the covering because that is what this has become; the means by which women express their faith. This teaching has erroneously been seen as what a woman must do to identify with Christ.

But Paul uses the word 'ordinances' in his instruction in these verses. Just like his judgments (I Cor.6:40), these are given when circumstances arise that need the apostle to set policy. We see that Paul is again addressing family government and setting policy when he says, "The head of the woman is the man." The only time that the head of the woman is the man, is when they are married.

When he says, "Every woman praying or prophesying with her head uncovered dishonors her head..." he was speaking of the use of the traditional cloth covering that was the custom for women to wear at that time. Some women had liberated themselves, and when they prophesied without the traditional headdress they drew attention to this cultural issue rather than the grace of God this became a problem. Church government steps in to say that it is best to honor the custom of the time rather than to draw negative attention to oneself.

When Paul said, "For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels," he was saying that just as angels are subject to the government in which they have to function, so ought women to be subject to the government of the Church concerning the ordinances that are delivered; and so ought the wives to be also subject to the government of the family, the (law) of their husband.

This verse, "For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels" is also in reference to the angel of the assembly which is present to bring the grace of God, not to offend him by being contrary to the ordinances of the apostles.

Then in verse 16 we read, "If any man seems to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God." Clearly the apostle is not speaking of the mystery of the gospel, which does not change, but the policy by which a man rules his own house, this may change.

Society is born into the custom of the day, but the Church is not born into that custom. Yet for the sake of what is seen as proper, we should submit when it is deemed necessary.

When these ordinances and judgments of the apostles are made into doctrine for the Church we see that it puts an unequal yoke or burden upon every woman to be subject to every man in every function of every assembly. Is this wholesome doctrine? Does it contain all of the ingredients necessary for growth? No. This is unwholesome doctrine because it interrupts the flow of the Spirit within the assembly, creates false humility, and servitude that is carnal in nature.

Remember that the members of Christ are neither male nor female. Both genders function on an equal basis within the context of the mystery and the assembly. Therefore women do not need the permission of a man to speak; neither do they serve the man. A wife serves her own husband.

Therefore women do not need the 'covering' of a man to prophesy, teach, share a word of knowledge or word of wisdom. Women do not need the 'covering' of a man to function in a calling or in the office of a deacon or bishop.

The word 'covering' has changed with time to also include the idea of 'accountability'. Men use the 'covering' of relationships to bring themselves into submission to each other. This is said to be their 'covering'. Again, Paul never taught this doctrine, neither did he deliver to the Church this ordinance.

The apostles used the word FELLOWSHIP when describing the communication of one saint to another, not the word 'relationship'. The word relationship depicts the carnal, earth bound contact points of Adam's system.

Fellowship is with the mystery, with the contact points of the gifts, callings, and graces of God. Fellowship is sharing the same substance of grace and truth and the fruit of His work. In this there is the bond of charity which is expressed within the assembly from the foundation of truth. Therefore accountability is in truth and not in the person.

Relationships are founded upon people, and not on Christ. People try to find 'common ground' beliefs because they are not accountable to one truth. False humility is exercised through the submission of one to another, and not to the grace of God. Accountability is to the person, and not to truth.

In relationships it is thought that if we are held accountable to one another we can become a 'covering' for one another. I check you and you check me. Yet what agreement can there be in the temple of God with idols?

In true fellowship we are held accountable to truth within the government of God. Therefore we all conform to that ONE faith. Grace flows within the assembly, binding one to another in the expression of charity that all share.

In rightly dividing the word we could readily see what tools God uses for both men and women to serve Him, to serve each other, and to be brought unto submission.

What does God use to provide the protection and submission that people look for in a so-called 'covering'? God uses the tools of sanctification to bring both male and female believers into contact with the things He uses to care for their soul. Both male and female believers are in subjection to the angel of the assembly. The angel brings the revelations of God through the gifts and the callings. These are given to bring the blessings of the covenant, both to advance in knowledge and profit from grace. God uses both the mystery and the assembly to bring man into submission to His Spirit, and also brings man into His care.

In the Body of Christ, where there is no Jew nor Greek, no male, nor female, what does God uses to bring all saints into submission also brings all saints into His care.

Being sanctified within the assembly; being under the covering of the angel of the assembly. That angel brings the inspiration and revelation of God through the gifts. These are what all saints submit to, which is what in turn brings your soul into God's care. The gifts are designed to bring the blessing of the covenant so that with these we can advance in knowledge and profit by grace.

Covering: 1. The order of government which protects; being in subjection to God's government both is doctrine and in function provides the protection every saint needs. 2. What God has determined as necessary to guide us, and for our growth.


Copyright © 2007 Second 8th Week Ministries, Inc.


Melissa wrote
Apostle JoAnne Cremer,

I must again respectfully disagree with you.

I would like to know your explanation of when the Holy Spirit stopped revealing truth to people in the church outside of your Second 8th week ministries. I would also like you to explain why the gifts of the Holy Spirit never stopped outside of your Apostles ministry. I assure you that the gifts still are very active in certain Christian circles.

I also would like to know when the church became disconnected with the Headship of Christ. It is true that there are problems in churches today, and there are many people inside churches today who are nominal Christians.....but there have always been true believers in Jesus, and there always will be.

When did the Holy Spirit stop speaking truth to people's hearts?

Also, I thought that the Holy Spirit was the One who equips and empowers the believer to do the things of God....not education taught by humans.

However, I do agree with you on the matter of women being not prohibited from the ministry.

Here is one line that I specifically disagree with...this goes back to the topic of the Holy Spirit:


quoting Apostle JoAnne Cremer:
Being sanctified within the assembly; being under the covering of the angel of the assembly. That angel brings the inspiration and revelation of God through the gifts. These are what all saints submit to, which is what in turn brings your soul into God's care. The gifts are designed to bring the blessing of the covenant so that with these we can advance in knowledge and profit by grace.

my response to her quote:
What? The Holy Spirit, who is God is the who brings the inspriation and revelation of God through the gifts. It is the Holy Spirit who equips the believer in spiritual gifts. The Holy Spirit is not an angel.

1CO 12:7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

This angel that you're referring to is taking the place of the Holy Spirit, according to your teachings. Saints (believers in Jesus) do not submit to angels. They submit to God, and only God. God = the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit. Saints do not submit to any angels....

In fact, that reminds me of this passage:
2CO 11:13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

The spiritual gifts are for edification and for God's glory.


Apostle JoAnne Cremer wrote
Rev. 2:1 "Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write:..."
Rev 2:12: "And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write:.."
Rev 2:18: "And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write:.."'
Rev 3:1: "And unto the angel of hte church in Sardis write:.."
Rev 3:7: "And unto the angel of the church in Philedelphia write:.."
Rev 3:14: "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write:.."

Rev 1:20: "The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches:..."

Christians are not to worship angels. That is clear through scripture. What is also clear is that God's orders of angels have purpose and function and are not just sitting around "strumming harps". Their purpose and function is to administrate the plan of God and oversee what God has assigned to them for man's redemption. They play an integral part.

1 Peter 11: 2Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Angels are not just hanging over some heavenly balcony looking down on us. They eargely desire to participate and carry out God's plan of redemption. It is a joy for them to serve God with what He assigns to them.

This education on angelic orders, purpose and function is sorely missing from the Church today. Thus, Satan has had the opportunity to come in and sow many false doctrines and create fear among christians concerning angelic worship. This has cast a shadow of shame upon the Church and discredited the true the gospel of Jesus Christ.

The "tutorship" of angels in bringing the grace of God is not angelic worship. Christians submit themselves to the "grace" of God. We worship one God, and there is One Mediator. But ignorance of God's plan and how he administrates that plan through the ministry of angels is Satan's deception upon the Church. When Christians do not know how to exercise their faith with the grace of God then they are ignorantly resisting grace.

When the Church receives an acrcredited education in what the grace of God is, how the grace of God is delivered, how to grow in the grace of God, how to steward the grace of God, then Christians are able to behold Christ in their faith and recieve daily the Witness of Christ.

Growing in the grace of God is a Second Covenant commandment:

2 Peter: 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Stewarding the grace of God is a Second Covenant commandment:

1 Peter:4:10: As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.

John 1:51: And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

Angels are the ministers of God, who ascend and descend from the Throne of God to adminstrate the judgements of God. Upon the righteous the judgements are for salvation, and thus they deliver the grace of God in the form of revelation, illumination, understanding, enlightenment, etc. the things necessary for the soul to increase in the fruits of godliness and holiness. We do not "work up" these things ourselves, they are authored by Jesus Christ and granted to us a reward for our obedience of faith. The pattern Jesus set was that He did not rely upon His divinity to set a pattern for our faith, He relied upon the grace of God that was brought to him by the ascending and descending angels. That's how He did what the Father "revealed" to Him to do. And thus as we also rely upon the grace of God that is delivered to us we are following the pattern of the Firstborn, Jesus Christ, the captain of our salvation, who shall bring many sons to glory who follow His pattern. This is how we are saved by grace, through faith, and not of ourselves. Man is always trying to adjust his behaviour, his attitude, his flesh, his frailty. take inventory of his strenghts and weakeness and find something he can use to serve God with. THis is not the savlation Christ authors, but will worship, and profits nothing.

Grace is a magnificent power that God issues daily to the just, so that their faith would be in response to what He initiates. When faith is in response to the grace of God it is righteous and pleasing to the Father because it bears His authorship and stamp of authentication.

The breach in the Church at this time is that Christian Leadership have redefined the grace of God to a definition of "God's unmerited favor." With this definition a believer cannot function with:.. they cannot grow by it or steward it. There is no direction for faith, no "functionality" for its sanctified expression. When the true definition of the grace of God is restored believers are able to walk in the reality of a true, living and fulfilling relationship with God and experience His daily fatherhood upon their soul for lasting spiritual healing and spiritual transformation. They do not go through mountain/valley experiences and try to "make sense of their suffering." Rather they walk consistently in daily growth cycles, being empowered by the grace of God, and daily experience increase of the fruits of Christ in the soul. I have over 100, 000 testimonies from believers around the world who I have instructed and fellowship with that confirm their joy is now full as they now walk in the simplicity of Christ because of the apostolic education the apostles gave them in the New Covenant.

Many exercise "aspiration" and view that as faith. Aspiration breeds division, strife, envy and competiton. When aspiration is replaced with faith then the Church will no longer strive against one another, there will be a unity that is not feigned and a oneness that is not deceitful.

It has been a joy to share the truth of Christ with you.

May the Lord grant understanding through His grace.

In Christ,
Apostle JoAnne Cremer



Melissa wrote
Apostle JoAnne Cremer,

First of all, the "angel" references in the passages you cited....there may be angels protecting people and working for God.....however, it is never angels who reveal the things of God to us believers. It's always God Himself....the Holy Spirit.

To rely on angels in place of God is wrong....

the following is what the Holy Spirit does:
JN 14:15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever-- 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

JN 14:25 "All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

JN 15:26 "When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me. 27 And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.

JN 16:12 "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

I was not referring to worshiping angels....what I was referring to was relying on them. There is a difference, though they are both wrong. If you assign those tasks to angels, than what is the purpose of the Holy Spirit?

Just because 1 Peter 1:11 says "which the angels desire to look into" does not mean that they are revealing truth to people. They may enjoy working for God, but this does not mean that they are to take the Holy Spirit's place. They cannot give people discernment, equip them, sanctify them, teach them the things of God, give spiritual gifts, etc. To give them those functions is to replace the Holy Spirit with angels.


quoting Apostle JoAnne Cremer:
This education on angelic orders, purpose and function is sorely missing from the Church today. Thus, Satan has had the opportunity to come in and sow many false doctrines and create fear among christians concerning angelic worship. This has cast a shadow of shame upon the Church and discredited the true the gospel of Jesus Christ.

My response to her quote:
Where is the Holy Spirit in your belief system? The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth. True Christians have a personal relationship with God, and the Holy Spirit speaks to them all the time, convicting them of sin, guiding them, revealing the truth to them, etc. The failure of the church, in your eyes, is because of the lack of right understanding of angels? Where in the Bible does it say that the right undrstanding of angelic orders is essential for the believer's life, as well as the life of the church.

Please tell me what you consider to be the "true gospel of Jesus Christ." You are implying that this "true gospel of Jesus Christ" is no longer taught in the church.


quoting Apostle JoAnne Cremer:
The "tutorship" of angels in bringing the grace of God is not angelic worship. Christians submit themselves to the "grace" of God. We worship one God, and there is One Mediator. But ignorance of God's plan and how he administrates that plan through the ministry of angels is Satan's deception upon the Church. When Christians do not know how to exercise their faith with the grace of God then they are ignorantly resisting grace.

My response to her quote:
No, it's not angelic worship, but it's still taking the place of the Holy Spirit. It's teaching a reliance on angels for truth, instead of a reliance on God.

Tell me what you think God's plan is, since you obviously believe that the church has a corrupted understanding of it.

Once again, it's the Holy Spirit who teaches us how to walk in a way that is pleasing to God. It has nothing to do with angels. It is the Holy Spirit who reveals truth to people...He is the champion of truth.


quoting Apostle JoAnne Cremer:
When the Church receives an acrcredited education in what the grace of God is, how the grace of God is delivered, how to grow in the grace of God, how to steward the grace of God, then Christians are able to behold Christ in their faith and recieve daily the Witness of Christ.

My response to her quote:
That is completely taking the Holy Spirit's place!

You're also referring to head knowledge. What do you have to say about having a personal relationship with God?


Quoting Apostle JoAnne Cremer:
Growing in the grace of God is a Second Covenant commandment:

2 Peter: 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Stewarding the grace of God is a Second Covenant commandment:

1 Peter:4:10: As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.


My respone to her quote:
We grow in grace through developing an ongoing personal relationship with God. The Holy Spirit continually helps us in this process.


Quoting Apostole JoAnne Cremer:
John 1:51: And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

Angels are the ministers of God, who ascend and descend from the Throne of God to adminstrate the judgements of God. Upon the righteous the judgements are for salvation, and thus they deliver the grace of God in the form of revelation, illumination, understanding, enlightenment, etc. the things necessary for the soul to increase in the fruits of godliness and holiness. We do not "work up" these things ourselves, they are authored by Jesus Christ and granted to us a reward for our obedience of faith. The pattern Jesus set was that He did not rely upon His divinity to set a pattern for our faith, He relied upon the grace of God that was brought to him by the ascending and descending angels. That's how He did what the Father "revealed" to Him to do. And thus as we also rely upon the grace of God that is delivered to us we are following the pattern of the Firstborn, Jesus Christ, the captain of our salvation, who shall bring many sons to glory who follow His pattern. This is how we are saved by grace, through faith, and not of ourselves. Man is always trying to adjust his behaviour, his attitude, his flesh, his frailty. take inventory of his strenghts and weakeness and find something he can use to serve God with. THis is not the savlation Christ authors, but will worship, and profits nothing.


My response to her quote:
It's not because of angels that we are saved. It's all by Jesus' blood, and only by His blood. The Holy Spirit gives revelation, illumination, understanding, enlightement, etc. The angels do not. It is He that sanctifies us, and it is by Him that we have the fruits of the Spirit. This has nothing to do with angels.

Jesus had a personal relationship with the Father. Even though Jesus was God Himself too, He needed to be empowered by the Holy Spirit....all of His miracles that He did were by the power of the Holy Spirit. Jesus constantly relied on the Father....and knew the Father in such an intimate relationship....Jesus always acknolweged the Father in everything that He did and said. His confidence and strength came from the Father. It didn't come from angels. Angels may have descended and ascended on Him, but His reliance was on the Father. The Holy Spirit empowered Him. The angels did not.

If there was any pattern that Jesus set, it was that we cannot rely on ourselves....we cannot rely on anything other than God. Jesus even said, "Apart from Me you can do nothing." He showed a pattern of submission, obedience, love, and most importantly, cultivating intimacy with the Father. Another way of saying this would be by trusting in God to provide for our every need. Jesus never said that angels would provide for our every need.

We are saved by grace through trusting in Jesus Christ, through relying on what He did for us on the cross. Through trusting in His blood to cover our sins.....through declaring Him as Lord of our life.


Quoting Apostle JoAnne Cremer:
Grace is a magnificent power that God issues daily to the just, so that their faith would be in response to what He initiates. When faith is in response to the grace of God it is righteous and pleasing to the Father because it bears His authorship and stamp of authentication.

The breach in the Church at this time is that Christian Leadership have redefined the grace of God to a definition of "God's unmerited favor." With this definition a believer cannot function with:.. they cannot grow by it or steward it. There is no direction for faith, no "functionality" for its sanctified expression. When the true definition of the grace of God is restored believers are able to walk in the reality of a true, living and fulfilling relationship with God and experience His daily fatherhood upon their soul for lasting spiritual healing and spiritual transformation. They do not go through mountain/valley experiences and try to "make sense of their suffering." Rather they walk consistently in daily growth cycles, being empowered by the grace of God, and daily experience increase of the fruits of Christ in the soul. I have over 100, 000 testimonies from believers around the world who I have instructed and fellowship with that confirm their joy is now full as they now walk in the simplicity of Christ because of the apostolic education the apostles gave them in the New Covenant.

My response to her quote:
So, for you, grace has nothing to do with God's umerited favor? So....what...it can be earned because of having the right attitude and relying on angels?

I would like to know how I, as a believer in Jesus, cannot function with the defintion of grace being an umerited favor....because I see the cross of Christ, and His grace in that throughout everything that I do.....I don't deserve any of it, yet He lavishes it upon me anyway....it only makes me stand in awe of God, and want to glorify Him.

As for having no direction for faith, there is too.....that I may grow in my relationship with God, know Him better, glorify Him, and share Him with everyone that I meet. I want to worship Him and serve Him, and bow all of me before Him. It is by the power of the Holy Spirit that I'm able to walk out the Christian life. This has always been God's intention and purpose.

I could also send you 100, 000 testimonies from believers who have been transformed by the power of God, by trusting in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior....and who have an intimate, personal relationship with God.


Quoting Apostle Cremer:

It has been a joy to share the truth of Christ with you.

May the Lord grant understanding through His grace.

My resposne:
It is my joy to also share in this discussion with you. I also am praying for you, that the Holy Spirit would show you the truth and understanding.


Melissa wrote
If you are not preaching the gospel that the church holds to, then you are preaching another gospel and another Jesus!!!

GAL 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel-- 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!


Also, notice in this verse how it says "if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you...

You are claiming that angels are preaching your gospel. Angels don't preach the true gospel.


Apostle JoAnne Cremer wrote
Greetings to everyone,

I think this is a very good topic of discussion as many believers are often left scratching their head about this passage of scripture and how to understand it in its proper context.

So many people today look to Jesus as a someone they can model their behaviour after. They end up coming up with thousands of "principles" or "steps" on centering on moral action and moral standard as a means to express faith and to express righteousness. But if we observe Jesus' actions here we will see that He was not setting a standard for faith or righteousness based on the moral code, otherwise He would have affirmed that the Law of Moses was indeed correct and she should have been punished by that law.

Jesus did not judge the woman caught in adultery because he was demonstrating that the moral code was not the standard by which judgement is righteous.

Jesus did not come to the earth to set a moral code for behaviour, nor to affirm any one else's moral code. He came to set a pattern for the expression of faith so that the expression would meet His standard of rightousness.

This is just one of many examples in the earthly ministry of Jesus where we observe Jesus demonstrating that the moral center is not equal to God's righteousness.

We are in fact commanded to judge. But our judgement must not be in partiality or according to one's frailty, flesh, conscience, aspiration, ambition, signature strength or skill, or the wisdom of the world. Our judgement must be according to truth, according to the standard Jesus set for the New Covenant expression of faith. When faith is judged by this standard, it is called "righteous judgement." The spiritual man judges all things, but is judged by no one.

The paradox Christians experience when speaking about judging is that they perceive from the perspective of the flesh, in making "carnal judgements" one toward another. The apostles did not teach this, rather they taught judgement according to "assessing the doctrine one is embracing, to see whether it be of God or of seducing spirits." This type of judgement is righteous and commanded that we carry out, as we see apostle John saying, "try the spirits, to see whether they be of God." The apostles repeatedly admonished their converts to not be persuaded by enticing words of man's wisdom, that would toss their soul to and fro and make them prey to wolves. No matter the century or continent, there are wolves in sheep's clothing who bring in damning teachings that center your faith on the "Increase" of material riches and fleshly gain, rather than the riches of Christ which are the virtues of Him, which spiritually transform the soul to His image and likeness.

When properly instructed by confirmed covenant apostles in the foundation of truth, these things are very easy to understand, easy to carry out, easy to walk in and easy to live by. The judgement of the spiritual man is to bring the soul to the fullness of the stature of Christ so that it can abide in the liberty and salvation of Christ. When judgement is according to the pattern of grace and truth, there is no strife, enmity, competition, or coveteousness; rather there is peace among the brethren, unity of faith as all confess and confirm Christ through one truth.

I thank God that the liberty of Jesus Christ is not set in the corruptible things of gold and silver, or in man's imagination and perception, but in the Word of Life, the Oath of the Son.

Prospering spiritually and Increasing After the True Riches,
Apostle JoAnne Cremer


Melissa wrote
Apsotles JoAnne Cremer,

With all due respect, I must disagree with you on some of the things you have written here.

Jesus didn't judge the women because He saw no wrong in adultery, but because He had compassion on her.

Jesus obviously still viewed adultry as sin....because He told her, "Go and sin no more." Also, in the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said that if a man looks at a woman lustfully, that they have committed adultery in their hearts. They are guilty of adultery. Paul also affirmed that sexual immorality was a sin.

Jesus' death on the cross does not mean that God no longer considers sin as sin. It just means that we can be forgiven.....that our sins are forgiven because of what Jesus did. Our sin has been paid for by Jesus' blood. This does not give us a license to sin. We do not earn our way into heaven by obeying God's laws and trying to be good. We can never be good enough. Grace is an undeserved gift. However, in light of this grace, because we love God....in response we try not to break God's heart by sinning.

God doesn't change His view of sin just because of the cross. To Him, sin is still sin.

Because we love God, we should make it our aim to glorify Him in all that we do.....sin does not glorify God, and it grieves the Holy Spirit.

I also disagree with your stance on why Jesus came. Jesus came to die....He came to do what we could not do on our own....He lived a sinless life, suffered for us, and then died in our place....in order to bring us back into relationship with God. He came to give us life...and to give us hope.....most importantly to pay for our sins so that we would not have to. He came to rescue us from sin.


Melissa


Apostle JoAnne Cremer wrote
There are an endless amount of questions Chistians have about moral behaviour. Why? Because the Church today uses a moral code to guide their expression of faith instead of the Law of Grace and Truth.... which is the New Covenant law Jesus gave for our faith.

Jesus did not come to set an example of morality. He came to set a pattern for the expression of faith. In order for faith to be acceptable to God, the expression of it must be restricted to the boundaries (the tools, knowledge, contact points & commandments) of the New Covenant. Believers "transgress" against God when their faith is expressed outside the contact points of the New Covenant. That is a sin.

Sin is an entire system. It is not one act here or there... it is a system. The soul under the system of sin is like a burnt house after a fire. All the memory files are distorted by sin, and the fruit of that kingdom fills the soul, and the soul reflects the image of Satan as he parented it while it was in his kingdom. Christ provides healing for the soul through His mediatorial work when believers commune with Him daily by the new covenant prieshtood. This is the spiritual transformation He promise, the healing, the deliverance, the salvation. True apostles give instruction in teh foundation of truth so that believers are able to daily make cognitive choices of faith, so that they their fellowship with God will be productive to bear the fruits of the Spirit within the soul. This is the the "work of regeneration" that God authors in our soul, so that we might be the image of Jesus instead of the image of Satan. Temperance is one of the fruits born in the soul through the work of the Spirit as we touch the Father by the tools of Christ.

When Christians are properly trained by apostles, they do not resource a moral code for their walk with God; rather they resource the Record of Christ and reciprocate the knowledge of Christ.

God put a moral code in us, but it is not to be used as a law of righteousness, otherwise we would have 6 billion laws of righteousness. There is only one law of righteousness, and that is Christ.

This is a point of transition the Church will go through as the Apostles transition it back to the New Covenant. Faith will then once again be tethered to truth instead of the moral center, the imagination, and the apsiration.

We are not to judge one another according to what we do in our own home. We judge one another according to "faith" and faith alone. Is faith perfectly expressing Christ? If not, then come to the apostles and learn how. If faith is perfectly expressing Christ, then praise God, express it continually that more fruit may be born in your soul and the other brethren may be nourished by the expression of the good words of faith. This is how we love one another.

God is judging faith, not our frailty.

When faith is cognitive and competent, we are given to wanting to please the Father and build the House of God. That means we don't speculate, compete, oppress, provoke and principle one another with carnal things, rather we labor circumspectly, sowing liberally to the Spirit by our stewardship of the grace of God so that all may be fed the bread of Christ. When Christians are properly educated by apostles to the terms and tools of the New Covenant this is an easy yoke to carry each day. It is a delight and joy to exchange the knowledge of Christ one with another because it draws "faith" from the heart and edifies the soul. This is how we abide in Him and in the Unity of the Faith.

I hope those notes encouraged you in Christ.

A prophecy for your edification:

"The counsel of righteousness adorns the soul in beauty, for it is by the power of grace that we are transformed from the beastly to the divine, wherein we become sons of God, offspring of the Most High."

Laboring in the New Covenant priesthood,
Apostle JoAnne Cremer


Melissa wrote
Okay...first realize two things....there is a difference between drinking and getting drunk. Drinking is not, in and of itself, sin. Getting drunk is.

I suppose you need to look at the question this way, instead of thinking "what can't I do..." you need to consider "if I do this, would it be glorifying to God....would it hurt my relationship with Him." You need to view it from the standard of love.

You also need to consider why you are drinking, because that will answer your question. If you want to drink because you are trying to deal with something in your life, and you think that drinkng will help you cope with it....then I would say that it's probably not in your best interest to drink. Why? Because it's hurting your relationship with God. It's causing you to turn to drinking to comfort you instead of turning to God to be your comfort. You're relying on something else instead of God.

If you're just drinking as a social reason.....and your intention is not to get drunk, and you have a set limit....and drink in moderation, and are responsible....or if you are just drinking as part of your meal.....I don't think that's sin.

There is one other factor that you need to think of - do you have an issue with alchohol in the past...have you been addicted to it? In your drinking in the past, if you have drunk, has it ever caused you to hurt someone else or caused you to do something you regretted later....and are you going to be driving? If the answer to any of that is yes, then it also is not in your best interest to drink.

I personally do not drink. It's my choice not to. I don't see any benefit from drinking. That's just me, though. I don't condemn other Christians who decide to drink.

Adultery is clearly a sin in the Bible.....whatever motive it is, the motive is wrong....there can be no good motive behind sin.

What are the motives behind adultery, let's see:
1.) to satisfy your own desires
2.) to get back at someone or to make someone jealous

Um....those are the only two that I can think of. I do not see how adultery could ever be a loving act. It always hurts another person...if you are married, your spouse, if you are not, then your future spouse. Jesus said that all the commandments could be boiled down to two things....loving God and loving other people

I don't think that adultery is acting out of love or glorifying to Him in any way whatsoever.


Apostle JoAnne Cremer wrote
Excellent question. I would like to assist with this clarification by providing a teaching from the apostles' office:

The biblical ground is that Apostle Paul was setting a judgement, not a new covenant commandment.

The Church, not being instructed by living apostles in the foundation of truth, is unable to rightly divide the scriptures or the covenants, and privately interprets the scripture and comes up with the "precept" instead of the Record of Christ. Precept is by imagination, but the Record of Christ by the truth delivered through apostles.

Let's look at the Gender commandments of the New Covenant.

What are the GENDER commandments of the New Covenant? What is the doctrine concerning gender? When the apostle Paul wrote in Gal.3:28 that, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither MALE nor FEMALE; for you are all ONE in Christ Jesus" was this a commandment, a statute, a precept, a judgment, testimony, or ordinance?

In order to rightly divide the word of God we have to know what to look for. Many people say that this scripture simply means that male and female both receive equal inheritance. Yes, this is true, but this scripture says, "...you are all one IN CHRIST." What is IN Christ, merely an inheritance, or does He also mediate the present covenant, and represent His work through the gifts, callings, and graces of God?

In rightly dividing this scripture we must look at the present covenant that Christ is mediating and how He represents the work of this covenant.

The reference in this scripture to being 'IN CHRIST' tells us that God erased the gender lines at the point of access which is Christ. Therefore, all that is in Him is gender free; what is in Christ is not limited by gender any more than it is limited by race.

Thus the commandment is universal, and deals with all believers for all time. The operation of the Spirit will continue to function by this law, and so should the government of God within the Church.

Whether male or female, all believers can function on an equal basis with what God has made available in Christ. Whether male or female, all can and should prophesy, share dreams or visions, share in the callings, pray, share words of knowledge, etc.

So why did the apostle write, "Let your women keep silence in the Churches; for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law, " I Cor.14:34, 35.

Now we must again rightly divide the word of God; for you see, there is never a contradiction within the mystery. We must simply answer the question, "Was this a commandment, a statute, a precept, a judgment, testimony, or ordinance?"

When the apostle John wrote his second epistle he wrote, "The elder unto the elect lady and her children, " this was not an isolated letter that was written to an acquaintance, but was addressed to an elder in the assembly which was responsible for the care of the saints. This elder was a woman.

If the scripture in I Cor14:34, 35 were a commandment then it would have been difficult for her to minister, she would not have been allowed to speak in the assembly. So we see that what Paul wrote about "women keeping silent in the Churches" was not a universal commandment, the doctrine of our faith.

If we look at the function which Jesus mediates within the assembly, we again see the things that are 'in Christ', we see the operation of God which is in connection with the covenant (those things which are needed for your sanctification), and we see this commandment, "you may all prophecy one by one, " I Cor.14:31; this is the doctrine of our faith because it is in connection with what the Spirit uses to sanctify us.

A woman could not have obeyed this commandment if she is not to speak in the Church. Therefore she would not have had access to the point of transaction that Jesus mediates for her edification. She could not fulfill the commandment that Paul gave in I Cor.14:12, "Even so you, forasmuch as you are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that you may excel to the edifying of the Church, " if she had to keep silent.

Therefore, when rightly dividing this word, we see that the admonition for women to keep silence in the Church was not a commandment, but A JUDGMENT -- That which the Spirit initiates for the saints to do at the time, setting a policy for our activity based on present circumstance.

***********************

What does it mean to 'rightly divide' the word of truth? The scriptures were written to provide a record of God's communication with man. The scriptures are divided into areas that address:

1. The present covenant that man is under.
2. The previous covenant man was under.
3. The covenant that is to come.
4. The commandments of each covenant.
5. The statutes of each covenant.
6. The precepts of each covenant.
7. The judgments of each covenant.
8. The testimonies of each covenant.
9. The ordinances of each covenant.
10. The law of each covenant.
11. The types and shadows and how they are fulfilled.
12. The doctrine of our faith.
God's law reveals all the doctrines which a believer must use to fully identify with the PRESENT COVENANT. The law contains the commandments, statutes, precepts, judgments, testimonies and ordinances.

Commandments: Identifies the operation of God that we must be active with for our faith; the ordered activity of our faith.

Statutes: Are the laws which cover a task or policy restricted by time.

Precepts: The laws which govern a Christian's moral activity.

Judgments: That which the Spirit initiates for the saints to do at the time, setting a policy for our activity based on present circumstance.

Testimonies: Are the acts of God; that which we witness or reflect on to testify of God's involvement; can be oral or written.

Ordinances: A rite or ceremony which is accepted for that place. A law which is restricted only to that area by the apostle.

Doctrines: What we identify with in our faith; collectively, all doctrine within a system is called truth for that system.

*********** I hope these notes have helped clarify the Doctrine of Jesus Christ on this subject. I will post the full lesson the Second 8th Week Apostles' University provides on this as a new post for full context reading.

In Christ,
Apostle JoAnne Cremer

Apostle JoAnne Cremer wrote
This has been an interesting dicussion and I would like to share a follow up comment:

Women do not need anyone to "allow" them into ministry and they do not need anyone's permission. People have written on this subject for years, but it is Jesus Christ that calls all Christians to the believer's priesthood, and then to an office of God's government. ALL are called. Not just a few. Every Christian is called to function in the New Covenant priesthood and God has a calling to one of the 5 offices for ALL christians. This is how we raise up new converts in each generation to the fullness of the stature of Christ.

These are points the Church will come to understand as the Apostles take it through the Great Transition back to the New Covenant pattern for faith.

I am currently establishing churches in many locations around the world with the other apostles of the Second 8th Week, and we are training and confirming into government men and women. The process is simple and uncomplicated by man's traditions and aspirations.

"They who abide in the Light of Christ serve the Lord with fear and rejoice with trembling, for great is the mercy of God upon the children of righteousness."

Building the kingdom of God with grace and truth,
Apostle JoAnne Cremer


Melissa wrote
Apostle JoAnne Cremer,

I worded it like that because of the opinions of so many in the body of Christ who do not think that women should be allowed to.

It's good to know that the Second 8th Week is doing this, but so are other chruches.


Apostle JoAnne Cremer wrote:
Dear Friends,

Since this group is about sharing how lives have been changed, I thought it would be appropriate and edifying to share this testimony here.

This is a letter that came to me Friday from one of my students in Kenya, who is a pastor of a congregation there. He is only on his 4th lesson of the apostolic education to the New Covenant I am providing to him through the Apostles' University. It is a great blessing to see people liberated into the simplicity and fullness of Jesus Christ and be freed from exploitation and manipulative doctrines that cause so much spiritual confusion and suffering.

He writes:

"Up to when I joined S8WU I had believed for many years that faith is about changing my world, changing my life, my environment and that as a child of God I had always to be the head and never the tail. I was perpetually in struggle with life and the devil.

Instead of carrying the Lords yoke which is light and easy, I was tired of this heavy burden of trying to convince my self that I was truly living in victory as a child of God.

There was so much contradiction between what I thought the word of God taught me and my ever struggling and often defeated Christian life. The sermons all around me, the Christian literature, commentaries, fellowships and music had a different rhythm and sang differently from the yearning of my inner soul.

I had the call of God. I struggled with this for a very long time especially due to some contradictions in my practical life as compared to what I thought was the ideal. I could not see how my ministry will finally work with peace and the victory that Christ has guaranteed us through the 2nd covenant. My life has been through many ups and downs, extreme mountains and valleys, that all left me confused, and frustrated.

Since I found out about S8WU I have started to experience the real fruits of spiritual transformation and have a fulfilling relationship with God without the wearisome struggles trying to please God, myself, fellow ministers, and immediate family etc.

The instructions of truth by I have been receiving through the S8W University lessons has completely set me at a different spiritual plane. Not even one month, and I can say for sure, there is so much hope and vibrancy bubbling within me. I have the assurance of God’s Holly spirit that I have truly come to the right fellowship of disciplers and leadership of Christ’s Government. I am aware the Apostles will set the complete foundation of truth in my heart and equip me to know and serve God perfectly.

Formerly, I was always under pressure and challenge to use my own powers IN JESUS NAME!!!! to address, perceive, measure, and correct circumstances. Satan always had me hooked to something optional to faith, and I had been erroneously taught for years (and had also taught others) that with Jesus all things were possible as long as we used His "Name." After all that is what scripture says! He was a saviour by being our problem solver!! I never understood the Lord’s new covenant tools, and had no idea of the Altar of Christ built with whole stones of Christ's truth as per God’s prescription. There was no possibility I could ever have been transformed spiritually.

I gathered a lot of books on positive living and positive faith. I had been taught about kingdom declarations and Governmental prayers, which actually all centered on my desires, ambitions, dreams and life of abundance. The word of God was meant to facilitate harnessing my God given potential to turn situations into favorable outcomes. Now I know this was very deceptive. I wanted and desired to do things the Jesus did them in the Gospels and expected to be at peace with the Lord apart from the covenant of Jesus Christ.

My recent years had a lot of financial challenges and Satan exploited my fears of lack and led to read a lot of materials that let me belief God wanted me to live in abundance, as promised in His word. Whenever things went wrong in my business, I had devil and demons or someone else to blame.

In the short time I have been with S8WU, I have learnt what I did not learn for three decades of Christianity. I have learnt that Jesus did not come to set a pattern of how to overcome lack, or how to look to Him as a model for problem solving. I had always believed that Power through Jesus Name was to be used to solve any problem and that the gospel message was to provide a power that we could use to remove contradiction and suffering. I never knew He came to empower us by His Spirit for spiritual transformation. Healing of our souls from iniquity."

***********

Praise God for the simplicity of Jesus Christ. When faith is removed from the things of man's passions, imaginations, and flesh and re-centered back onto Jesus Christ and the transformation of the soul... the soul truely begins to experience the tangible power of Christ.

"They who know God walk in cadence to His Spirit and fruitbearers in His Love."

Rejoicing in the liberty of Jesus Christ and building faith by His grace,
Apostle JoAnne

I couldn't respond to any more because my friend banned me from the group because I disagreed with his "Apostle".........but this "testimony" reveals a lot about what Second 8th week teaches...and how Jesus is belittled. This reminds me of another person who claimed that God said that the church didn't need to hear about Jesus, but should instead learn about his angel....The similarities between the emphasis that are in second 8th week ministries and that is in a certain other ministry are quite striking...(more on that later)




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