"Maybe this is true (I only know the American bands well.) Rules in music in regards to genres are almost always a general rule anyway." Yes, but there are rules that are essential for genre to be that genre, and also some rules that are optional. I generally dislike hardcore punk that overuses tempo changes, so in my mind there is no "rigid" connection between this feature and hardcore punk as a whole. This also is the reason why I've never noticed this in Hell Awaits i think.
"I'd include raw Black Metal under the spectrum of heavy music because it is just basically heavy distortion with poor production." Of course black metal is "heavier" than j-pop or something, but BM bands do not put the emphasis on the heavy distortion overload, so I would not describe them as "heavy" or "not heavy" at all. But i'd say that black metal is extreme (though BM is very different, 1st wave black in the vein of Sacrofago or Sodom is one of the most extreme stuff I've ever heard, at least in the spectrum of "rock music"). Some noise rock, sludge, a lot of doom metal, however, are -heavy- indeed.
I remember having this discussion before in i think the nu metal shoutbox. People consider heavy sounding music differently imo. "I agree with one of your earlier statements that it is subjective, partly because there are different types of heavy. Partly because I theorize that certain areas of the brain respond more to certain types of music than others, which gives the impression the music heavy to some people and not others. If your brain doesn't respond to it then music just sounds flat and lifeless. It can also depend on how jaded the person is to the music." >> yeah, think you described it better than i just did. Think some people have referenced music in general being heavy such as Led Zeppelin, i could be wrong there but i remember some rock bands/songs referred to 'heavy' during the 60's or 70's..
Would you say that free jazz is heavier than most music? Or power electronics? I'd say that "heavy" should refer to something like this [Electric Wizard], for example. >>> Electronic music can be heavy, yes. [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6uxlyx4nPc]Alternative Rock and Grunge[/url] can be heavy. Not sure about free Jazz though. Even Hip-Hop can be heavy, if it has gritty production and/or a bass heavy beat. I agree with one of your earlier statements that it is subjective, partly because there are different types of heavy. Partly because I theorize that certain areas of the brain respond more to certain types of music than others, which gives the impression the music heavy to some people and not others. If your brain doesn't respond to it then music just sounds flat and lifeless. It can also depend on how jaded the person is to the music.
"There were a lot of hardcore bands that focused strictly on speed, especially in Europe." >>> Maybe this is true (I only know the American bands well.) Rules in music in regards to genres are almost always a general rule anyway. It's like spelling rules in that they are always exceptions. You could say hXc has little melody but then you have bands such as Turning Point who are very melodic for hXc. Back to the point, Slayer for me were always one of the most Punk inspired Thrash bands (especially true out of the big four) and I think that Metal only really started becoming really heavy when it was fused with Punk. Bathory's debut and Hellhammer was punkish, Blasphemy had some Discharge in their sound, old school Death Metal like Possessed was Thrash (obviously Metal + Hardcore) pushed to it's limits and so on.
What the difference between heaviness and extremality then? >>> Heaviness is detuning and drop tuning, distortion & sometimes using pinch harmonics to help get a heavier, crunchier tone. Many bands do this with the guitar, and so I think extreme music is more about the drums & vocals. Extreme music is not just heavy but also extreme in tempo (fast/slow) and often with extremely low pitched or distorted sounds in the vocals. For example, guttural burping style vocals or pig squeals found in Brutal Death Metal and Deathcore. Sometimes the vocals can be distorted, as per Archgoat. I'd include raw Black Metal under the spectrum of heavy music because it is just basically heavy distortion with poor production. Also a lack of much melody & harmony is obviously extreme, but bands can be both melodic and raw, such as Drowning the Light. Heavy has many meanings - heavy distortion/tone, bass heavy or a heavy rhythmic section. It is usually less melodic, but not always as I mentioned with DTL.
"it certainly has punkish tempo changes in certain instances throughout the album." Hmm, I've never paid attention to it specifically to be honest, and assumed that they came to this independently, in natural way. Will check again. Also I must say that frequent rhythmic tempo changes are not the key ingredient to hardcore punk (though quite common). There were a lot of hardcore bands that focused strictly on speed, especially in Europe.
"You would not say that Black Metal is heavier than most music, mainly because it is rawer than most?" What the difference between heaviness and extremality then? Would you say that [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwNt7sHZaXY]free jazz[/url] is heavier than most music? Or [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3qf1dy6htw]power electronics[/url]? I'd say that "heavy" should refer to something like [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evVrWPtvbJo]this[/url], for example.
I simply don't feel how HA or RIB are heavier. Less melodic, more punkish and raw, yes. But I'd never say "heavier." >>> I would say rawer and less melodic falls falls under part of the definition of heavier. You would not say that Black Metal is heavier than most music, mainly because it is rawer than most?
(continued) The heavier parts of Punk require China cymbals and Metal started adapting to Crash/China cymbals as hi-hats become more aggressively played. It boils down to the fact that the heaviness was not unique to Metal and Thrash is heavy but it does not mean the heaviness was inspired by Metal. [url=http://www.blabbermouth.net/news/slayer-s-lombardo-hanneman-s-discovery-of-punk-rock-helped-shape-my-personal-drumming-style/]"Jeff was the guy that shaved his head and shared the music he was so inspired by. I enjoyed Dead Kennedy’s, Circle Jerks, Black Flag and the Germs with him. My drumming was getting faster and Jeff was writing original songs with a Punk attitude. The fusion of Heavy Metal and Punk took over Slayers early mediocre style, hence a new force was born. Thank you Jeff for your inspiring discovery of Punk rock that has continued to shape my personal drumming style."[/url] Dave Lombordo
Yes, HA has slow crushing heavy parts, but it is not a feature borrowed from hardcore punk, isnt' it? >>> I'd argue the rhythms on "Hell Awaits" don't always stay slow and they frequently change.The tempo's don't change as much as Hellhammer's punky drumming but it certainly has punkish tempo changes in certain instances throughout the album. Frequent and dramatic rhythmic tempo changes are key ingredient to Hardcore Punk - see the intro to Bad Brains' "Big Take Over." The Bad Brains song also builds tension with the drumming as per "Hell Awaits." Also bare in mind it's obviously Metal mixed with HxC, so a slow, marching temp that builds (as per "Hell Awaits") can be really sinister - a key ingredient to Metal. I just think "Show No Mercy" has a more typical Heavy Metal rhythmic section with its gallops and drum rolls. The latter also focuses a lot more melody and leads while the drumming on Hell Awaits is relentless and crushing like a hXc album. (continued)
"When compared to a lot of later Slayer, the rhythm isn't as thick and heavy, the solos aren't as atonal and chaotic, and the leads aren't raw" I agree with this basically, this is about what I meant saying about more melodic metal influences, while at its core music is already based on hardcore punk rhythm patterns and song stucture have changed accordingly. I think we understand each other here, but I'm still confused about your statement on heaviness. I simply don't feel how HA or RIB are heavier. Less melodic, more punkish and raw, yes. But I'd never say "heavier", not to mention that this heaviness doesn't stem from the punk. Yes, HA has slow crushing heavy parts, but it is not a feature borrowed from hardcore punk, isnt' it?
No mention of Alt. Rock here either: [url=http://www.stereogum.com/1733483/qa-wes-borland-tells-us-whether-he-really-hates-being-in-limp-bizkit-and-why-fleet-foxes-are-bad-for-music/franchises/interview/]"I think that Bizkit kind of took more aggressive heavy riffs along the lines of Suicidal Tendencies and Pantera and simplified them a little bit and added a little of bit of melody and ending up having something that got popular, you know?" [/url] Wes Borland
OK, here's the proper quote: [url=http://www.stereogum.com/1733483/qa-wes-borland-tells-us-whether-he-really-hates-being-in-limp-bizkit-and-why-fleet-foxes-are-bad-for-music/franchises/interview/]"In the ’90s we tried to do something with metal, to take it into a new direction, based on combining metal bands with stuff that was on the heels of the grunge movement, like Helmet and Primus and even Pantera and the Melvins — taking those Helmet slaughterhouse riffs and combining it with like Carcass riffs and treating it more like a hip-hop Ministry song."[/url] Wes Borland
Finally, I don't think a heavier version of Alt. Rock is a good description of Nu Metal anyway. How would you differ it from Alternative Metal, if that was definition were accurate? I read in an Wes Borland interview that he would describe Limp Bizkit as a simplified, Hip-Hop version of Ministry and that is a much better description.
Lastly "heaviness" is a bad criterion to argue whether nu metal is metal or not, since it's obviously heavier/rougher than Stratovarius or Edguy, for example. >>> I know but I was being very general (as bluegrassishhh was when they said "Nu Metal is just heavier Alt Rock.) Generally, Heavy Metal is just heavier Hard Rock, was my counter that general statement - which goes back to my point that Metal isn't clearly defined and so bluegrassishhh's statement on Nu Metal not being Metal are meaningless. Define it? Heavy Metal usually has less overt Blues riff styling than Hard Rock. Of course, that is not always the case and Heavy Metal has obviously evolved so much since it's roots, borrowing from so many different styles Where do you draw the line?
"Actually "Show No Mercy" has enough of punk influence already, especially at its fast moments." The riffing is mostly Judas Priest & NWOBHM style riffs, just sped up. When compared to a lot of later Slayer, the rhythm isn't as thick and heavy, the solos aren't as atonal and chaotic, and the leads aren't raw. All these are a feature of HxC. For example, later Slayer has a lot more atonal solos, as Black Flag does. Sure it has enough Punk influence to be Thrash but SNM is (mostly) the Speed Metal side of Thrash Metal (as is a lot of Megadeth.)
Actually I don't understand at all why do you say that it's "more fast than heavy" in relation to the next Slayer's albums. >>> I wasn't comparing Slayer albums. I just don't consider "Show No Mercy" to be that heavy. What stands out to me more is the speed of the riffs. If you want to compare though, "Hell Awaits" is a lot slower in places (listen to the intro of the title track) but it's certainly heavier. A bit like ...and Justice For All, which is also slower but heavy in a crushing, almost Doom Metal like, manner.
Regarding all this discussion about "heaviness" I think it's too subjective. Some people would say that only trad doom metal and its extreme derivatives are heavy. In my opinion it makes sense. I personally try to avoid resorting to the "heaviness" at all, while talking about music. Lastly "heaviness" is a bad criterion to argue whether nu metal is metal or not, since it's obviously heavier/rougher than Stratovarius or Edguy, for example.
Actually "Show No Mercy" has enough of punk influence already, especially at its fast moments. What mainly distinguishes it from the next release, is noticeable "Iron Maiden-ish" melodic influence (that had vanished soon), not a lack of hadcore punk itself. Actually I don't understand at all why do you say that it's "more fast than heavy" in relation to the next Slayer's albums.
all those subgenres are considerably heavier than nu (and thus closer to metal)." Find me some Folk or Gothic Metal heavier than [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwatsvkKA9I&feature=youtu.be&t=53s]Caustic Method - "The Virus" ][/url] or [url=https://www.reverbnation.com/iburnmusic/song/12800109-lashing-out]iBurn - "Lashing Out"[/url]
Yeah, I feel the same way about the modern kind, for the most part... Metallic hardcore is really good imo, but the newer bands are only good if you grew up with them. At least that's the case with me; nostalgia rules over all else. Nobody actually enjoys KSE without the childhood memories, right???
And trash73, I'm really not trying to differ with you or anything, it's just that all those subgenres are considerably heavier than nu (and thus closer to metal). I suppose you're right about the stigma though. I don't feel strongly about distancing myself from nu, but I just think it's far too soft and random (or varied, in this setting) to be considered metal. Alt-rock is a pretty appropriate catch-all term in my mind, but then again I'm really drunk right now and as I'm writing this I've completely forgotten what I'm talking about. Sorry.
I don't think anyone is arguing whether Nu Metal is pure Metal, it clearly isn't. It is where you draw the line as to "what is Metal" is where some fans feel there is a stigma against Nu Metal. Particularly, when the borders of Metal are stretched elsewhere to suit some bands (e.g. Lifelover - Post-Punk, Sunn o))) - Drone/Ambient etc.) but the borders are cut off for some Nu Metal bands which are closer to Metal (early Mudvayne, Ektomorf, later Slipknot, Coal Chamber etc.)
"I just think it's far-fetched to consider bands that draw nearly equal inspiration from hip-hop/electro/funk as rock/metal to belong to the same style that bred doom, death, and speed metal." You could also argue Thrash Metal and Grindcore takes equal inspiration from Hardcore and Crust Punk, Folk Metal takes equal inspiration from Folk music, Gothic Metal takes equal inspiration from Goth Rock etc. Plus, Faith No More are considered Metal (and they fuse Metal with 2 of the genres you mentioned and many others.) http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Faith_No_More/983
"What type of metalcore are you thinking of? The modern kind, metallic hardcore, or are you just being general? " I'm thinking of both. I'd say that 90s metallic hardcore sounds like a better version of groove metal in general... or something like that. Late 00s metalcore is often a poppy chugging melo-death, bordering sometimes on alternative rock and etc. I don't consider both as "shitty" anymore though.
vv What type of metalcore are you thinking of? The modern kind, metallic hardcore, or are you just being general? I think I missed your point. Metalcore is either a shitty form of hardcore, or in your opinion, a shitty form of metal? Um...
I just think it's far-fetched to consider bands that draw nearly equal inspiration from hip-hop/electro/funk as rock/metal to belong to the same style that bred doom, death, and speed metal. Of course, how much they sound like this or that depends on the band, but most bands in the genre ultimately fall closer to alt-rock. Most, not all.
I could, for instance, go along with calling Otep metal, but the majority of leading nu bands aren't even close to as heavy as them. I simply don't hear the reason why you'd wanna toss all of those bands under "metal", but maybe I'm alone here.
"Metalcore isn't a subgenre of metal." Metalcore has much more in common with metal music than hardcore. When I was into hardcore punk, I rejected all metalcore (including non-mainstream 90s one) as shitty metal subgenre (I considered that all metal is crap back then). And then again, yes, a lot of modern metal is as far away from metal as nu metal. Moreover, heavy metal has already started to erode back in the 80s, since thrash metal had became leading underground subgenre, and thrash metal was a merger of a more aggressive side of heavy metal or speed metal and hardcore punk. First wave black metal was even more punkish.
it wasn't my intention to start an argument around that. It was my intention to bring up the fact that that Metal isn't clearly defined. Both Heavy Metal and Nu Metal stem from Rock but are "heavier." You could find a general rule to define Metal but there would always be exceptions. In philosophy, generally, when there is no line of definition it is understood that the subject has no meaning. Blackgaze, Ambient Black Metal, Drone Doom & Funeral Doom etc. are just as far away from Metal as a lot of Nu Metal. A lot of Nu Metal isn't too far away from Soulfly & Devildriver which is considered Metal.
"Full of self-conscious metrosexuals playing at who's gonna growl the loudest to make the fangirls wet their pants" That's the appeal, though! I don't get why people point that out like it's bad. No other Metal subgenre does melodrama and cheesiness the same way. Power Metal is ultra cheesy, but in a different manner. The whiny vocals and slick production are my favorite things about it, despite being why most people hate it.
Such a redundant tag. Name me one band that is just plain METAL. Not death metal, thrash metal, black metal or whatever... just METAL. If there's one real use for tags, it's classifying the incredibly vast musical differences among artists. In my view, the genre metal is simply way to general... it's almost like one step away from tagging something with "music".
@bobo9390 Born Of Osiris, Trivium, Avenged Sevenfold, Converge, Between the Buried and Me, Betraying the Martyrs, The Dillinger Escape Plan... is it Metalcore enough for you? Like TheOnlyMAD said earlier, "Only people who have heard very few metal bands can hate the genre". Digzh wrote "Worst genre ever for being a fan" depsites having mostly if not only Metalcore bands in his library...Yes of course, I've exaggerated, there are good Metalcore bands but it's still one of the most cliché and mass produced subgenres of Metal, along with Deathcore, Nu Metal & cie. Full of self-conscious metrosexuals playing at who's gonna growl the loudest to make the fangirls wet their pants. To see someone bash a whole genre just after having listened to such a watered down subgenre is ridiculous.