Prove Jesus Is Not God - A Trinity Thread

 
    • Arwen4CJ disse...
    • Usuário
    • Jan 29 2008, 2h20

    Prove Jesus Is Not God - A Trinity Thread

    This thread is taken from the Battle of the Denominations group.

    Marie wrote
    I got a revelation today. we know Gods saves. Hes the only one who saves. if people don't know God. Yes even those who claim to acceptJesus as lord and savouir. how can you be saved? If you don't know God you are none of his. Jesus will tell you, I have never knew you depart from me ye workers of inquity.

    Jesus is the only man with no sin. the Jews accused him of blasphemy right. well people worshiped Jesus fell at his feet. if you know your bible he did not stop them. Jesus told them go sin no more.

    In the 10 commandments 1 thou shall no other gods before me. down in the other verses Jehovah of the OT tells us not to make graven images or bow down or to worship them. Jehovah of the old testament aka Jesus of the New Testament is a Jealous God. He saves , has mercy on those who love him and keep his commandments.

    In the new testament It states there is no name under heaven which we shall be saved but Jesus name. All knees shall bow and woship Jesus. IN the OT God said no one is to be worshiped but The great I am thats the God of the OT aka Jehovah. Jesus claims to be the great I am. Jesus says if you seen me ye have seen the father. thats why the pharisees killed him for blasphemy. well those who claim salvation on Jesus blood and say hes not God.

    If that would be the case then Jesus would be guilty of what the pharisees said he was. then their would be no point in slavation in his blood because he would not be sinless unless he is the God of the OT.

    also food for thought.

    “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, the everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace” (Isaiah 9:6).

    “I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not” (John 5:43).

    “Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you , and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? (John 14:8, 9).

    Since Jehovah is one of the Father’s names, and Jesus came in that name (Jehovah is salvation), the Father’s name must be Jesus. Since Isaiah said that the Son who would be given, would be called “The everlasting Father”, Jesus must be the Father, for surely He is the Son that was given. Jesus told Philip that He was the Father.


    THE GOD OF THE NEW TESTAMENT

    “And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us” (Matthew 1:21-23).

    “And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory” (I Timothy 3:16).

    “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. and ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power” (Colossians 2:8-11).

    All three of these portions of New Testament writing let us know that God came to earth in the form of a man. It says God was manifested, which means He was made visible, or He showed Himself to us in a fleshly form. The name Jesus could never have been used by God if He hadn’t come in the flesh.

    The name Jesus described the new role that God would play in relationship to mankind’s need. Only flesh and blood could die, and God said that blood was the only thing that could buy the remission of our sin. “And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission” (Hebrews 9:22).

    Since the Spirit of God had no blood to shed, God formed a body for Himself by overshadowing the virgin Mary. That body was made for the purpose of becoming our Redeemer. In Old Testament law, only a near kinsman could redeem a person, or the land, when they were sold out side of the family.. God became one of us so that He could be our near kinsman and buy our salvation. The name “Jesus” is a combination of “Jehovah” and “our salvation”. He was called Jesus because Jehovah had become our salvation. Only by dying and shedding His blood could that happen.

    The Word then went on to say that God put every thing that there was of the Godhead in the physical body of Jesus. When we have Jesus, we have every thing we need for salvation. His very name means “salvation”.

    So, we are finding that the same Jehovah, who was God of the Old Testament, is still the God of the New Testament. that name is Jesus.

    Now prove he is not God? If you think you are right. then the bible says you have no remissions of sins. you are just as lost as any atheist, satanist or what everother religon that denies Jesus is God.

    To the one who says my post makes no sense who goes by mr super human is that easy to understand now? If you don't want to believe it or anyone else who wants to deny Jesus is God. your the ones lost not me. I did my part to try to show you.

    • Arwen4CJ disse...
    • Usuário
    • Jan 29 2008, 2h21
    Love Is The Best Gift wrote:
    also food for thought.

    “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, the everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace” (Isaiah 9:6).

    “I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not” (John 5:43).

    “Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you , and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? (John 14:8, 9).

    Since Jehovah is one of the Father’s names, and Jesus came in that name (Jehovah is salvation), the Father’s name must be Jesus. Since Isaiah said that the Son who would be given, would be called “The everlasting Father”, Jesus must be the Father, for surely He is the Son that was given. Jesus told Philip that He was the Father.


    THE GOD OF THE NEW TESTAMENT

    “And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us” (Matthew 1:21-23).

    “And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory” (I Timothy 3:16).

    “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. and ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power” (Colossians 2:8-11).

    All three of these portions of New Testament writing let us know that God came to earth in the form of a man. It says God was manifested, which means He was made visible, or He showed Himself to us in a fleshly form. The name Jesus could never have been used by God if He hadn’t come in the flesh.

    The name Jesus described the new role that God would play in relationship to mankind’s need. Only flesh and blood could die, and God said that blood was the only thing that could buy the remission of our sin. “And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission” (Hebrews 9:22).

    Since the Spirit of God had no blood to shed, God formed a body for Himself by overshadowing the virgin Mary. That body was made for the purpose of becoming our Redeemer. In Old Testament law, only a near kinsman could redeem a person, or the land, when they were sold out side of the family.. God became one of us so that He could be our near kinsman and buy our salvation. The name “Jesus” is a combination of “Jehovah” and “our salvation”. He was called Jesus because Jehovah had become our salvation. Only by dying and shedding His blood could that happen.

    The Word then went on to say that God put every thing that there was of the Godhead in the physical body of Jesus. When we have Jesus, we have every thing we need for salvation. His very name means “salvation”.

    So, we are finding that the same Jehovah, who was God of the Old Testament, is still the God of the New Testament. that name is Jesus.

    Now prove he is not God? If you think you are right. then the bible says you have no remissions of sins. you are just as lost as any atheist, satanist or what everother religon that denies Jesus is God.

    To the one who says my post makes no sense who goes by mr super human is that easy to understand now? If you don't want to believe it or anyone else who wants to deny Jesus is God. your the ones lost not me. I did my part to try to show you.


    Marie,

    You know that I'm going to disagree with you on some of this. I do not believe that Jesus is the Father, though you do. I do not believe that Jesus is the name of the Father.

    However, I'm not going to argue about that here. You specifically asked me to come in here and help you show that Jesus is Jehovah. That I can do, because I do believe that Jesus is Jehovah. However, I also believe that the Father and the Holy Spirit are Jehovah.

    • Arwen4CJ disse...
    • Usuário
    • Jan 29 2008, 2h21
    I copied this from the JW thread:
    Here is what I wrote there

    Here are the verses again....and they are from your NWT:

    2 Peter 1:11
    11 In fact, thus there will be richly supplied to YOU the entrance into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

    2 Peter 2:20
    20 Certainly if, after having escaped from the defilements of the world by an accurate knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they get involved again with these very things and are overcome, the final conditions have become worse for them than the first.

    2 Peter 3:2
    2 that YOU should remember the sayings previously spoken by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through YOUR apostles.

    2 Peter 3:18
    18 No, but go on growing in the undeserved kindness and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him [be] the glory both now and to the day of eternity.

    Here are my questions:
    1.) Do you believe that in these verses from 2 Peter that "Lord" and "Savior are both titles that refer to Jesus Christ. (in other words that the way the sentece structure is "Lord" and "Savior are titles that refer to Jesus Christ)? yes or no

    2.) Do you acknowledge that Jesus is called Savior in these verses? yes or no

    • Arwen4CJ disse...
    • Usuário
    • Jan 29 2008, 2h22
    Here is Brother Rustic's response:
    Posted: Nov 3, 2007 6:20 PM What do you mean "my" NWT? And Obviously when it says Lord right before his name it is talking about Jesus.

    • Arwen4CJ disse...
    • Usuário
    • Jan 29 2008, 2h22
    Here is my response to his:

    Now, I want to ask you about another verse that uses the exact same sentence structure, and this verse is also in 2 Peter.

    The verse is 2 Peter 1:1.
    1 Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith, held in equal privilege with ours, by the righteousness of our God and [the] Savior Jesus Christ:

    the word "the" was inserted by the people who put together the NWT to try to avoid admitting that this verse clearly shows that Jesus is God (Jehovah). They inserted the word "the" in brackets. It is not in the Greek.

    So if you take out the word "the, " this is how the verse reads:
    1 Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith, held in equal privilege with ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

    By the logic that you just used, that "obviously it says Lord right before his name it is talking about Jesus."

    We can state here that obviously "God" and "Savior" are both titles that refer to Jesus Christ. So, "God" in 2 Peter 1:1 is referring to Jesus.

    What is your opinion of this?

    • Arwen4CJ disse...
    • Usuário
    • Jan 29 2008, 2h23
    Brother Rustic's response:
    Look at the following line in the NIV: " 2Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord" notice how it makes a distinction? But regardless, the Bible is clear in many other places that Jesus is the SON of God. He prays to him and say his teachings aren't his but are God's.

    • Arwen4CJ disse...
    • Usuário
    • Jan 29 2008, 2h23
    Marie wrote
    whats your difference? honestly when all the debates with oneness and trinatarians end what is the one thingyou both agree on? Jesus is God. ..Jehovah is the father everyone here whodenies Jesus is God because they feelthe father is God. so how can Jesus be Jehovah is Jehovah is the father? no matter which way you look at things we believe all 3 are one? now the point of this post is not to deny Jesus is not the father if thats the case how is Jehovah the father and Jesus is not? You said Jesus is jehovah so son't look to debate me.that is irrevelant to this post. when it comes down to the end. there will ne oneness and trintarians in heaven because we know who God is? Disagree allyou want thats not the point here. we know who God is. by you stating that you just killed my arguement.

    I have to retilate but with love. See the scriputes debate me in person which i feel no need to. i think its hog wash all this little knit picking things. we do in the church. we agree basically. we all do if we believe Jesus is Jehovah that is matter matters in the end. yes if we look at it from a human point of view jesus showed him self in 3 but the spirit is not a person can not be. either way honey all 3 are wrapped in Jesus . Jesus is God thats what will save us not little things here and there. We have to know who God is? Do you deny Jesus is God? If not stand by me not against me?


    by the way we all may not agree in all things> i have no problem with that. we have to know who God is in order to be saved? If you believe Jesus is God state your facts to back it up. if you don't believe Jesus is God than state your facts to back it up? Don't let the devil use us to divide even in small matters of indifferences. Jesus said if they are not against us leave them alone. Now who would be against God? Those who deny who he is? If you deny Jesus is God than your against my beliefs? If you believe Jesus is God and we disagree in smaller matters it doesn't matter. we need to pull together to show those who don't know who God is? show him who he is and he is Jesus

    I love u in Jesus Name

    • Arwen4CJ disse...
    • Usuário
    • Jan 29 2008, 2h24
    My response to Brother Rustic:

    2 Peter 1:1 in the NIV is this:
    2PE 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
    To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

    As for 2 Peter 1:2, the problem is that the sentence structure is different. 1:1 says "our God and Savior Jesus Christ, " like all the other verses I showed you of "our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ."

    2 Peter 1:2 says "through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord..." it has an extra of in there, which changes the meaning of that specific verse.

    So do you use the NIV or the NWT? I'll quote both since you haven't given me a direct answer.

    Jesus is the Son....I'm not denying that. What I'm trying to show you is that the Son is Jehovah, just as the Father is Jehovah. And yes, I acknowledge that Jesus prays to the Father....that is because Jesus isn't the Father, though both are Jehovah.

    Anyway....since you admit that Jesus is called Savior in 2 Peter, here is another verse I would like you to take a look at:

    Isaiah 45:21-22 NIV
    ISA 45:21 Declare what is to be, present it--
    let them take counsel together.
    Who foretold this long ago,
    who declared it from the distant past?
    Was it not I, the LORD?
    And there is no God apart from me,
    a righteous God and a Savior;
    there is none but me.

    ISA 45:22 "Turn to me and be saved,
    all you ends of the earth;
    for I am God, and there is no other.

    Isaiah 43:11-12
    ISA 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD,
    and apart from me there is no savior.
    I have revealed and saved and proclaimed--
    I, and not some foreign god among you.
    You are my witnesses, " declares the LORD, "that I am God.

    NWT Isaiah 45:21-22
    21 Make YOUR report and YOUR presentation. Yes, let them consult together in unity. Who has caused this to be heard from a long time ago? [Who] has reported it from that very time? Is it not I, Jehovah, besides whom there is no other God; a righteous God and a Savior, there being none excepting me? 22 “Turn to me and be saved, all YOU [at the] ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no one else.

    Isaiah 43:11-12
    11 I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.”
    12 “I myself have told forth and have saved and have caused [it] to be heard, when there was among YOU no strange [god]. So YOU are my witnesses, ” is the utterance of Jehovah, “and I am God.

    New Question:
    Unless the Son (Jesus) is Jehovah, Jesus cannot be Savior. Only Jehovah is Savior. Both the NIV and the NWT declare this. Taking 2 Peter and Isaiah together, Jesus has to be Jehovah for this to make any sense at all.

    What are your thoughts on this?

    To be very clear here, I'm not trying to suggest that Jesus is the Father. I do not believe that Jesus is the Father. However, I do believe that both Jesus and the Father are Jehovah.

    • Arwen4CJ disse...
    • Usuário
    • Jan 29 2008, 2h24
    Brother Rustic's response
    Posted: Nov 3, 2007 7:27 PM
    The trinity is a pagan teaching that comes from ancient false religions.

    • Arwen4CJ disse...
    • Usuário
    • Jan 29 2008, 2h25
    My response:
    You're trying to avoid making a comment on the fact that Jesus is called Savior in 2 Peter and that in Isaiah Jehovah says that only He is Savior.....with the implication that Jesus must also be Jehovah.

    Regardless of what you think of the Trinity....I'm trying to show you what is in the Bible, even in the JW's NWT.

    The Bible declares that there is only one God, Jehovah.

    The Father is obviously Jehovah....no question.

    But the Son is also Jehovah.....

    If you deny this, then you will have to deny the Bible.

    God being triune is the inescapable conclusion...it is not some pagan invention.

    • Arwen4CJ disse...
    • Usuário
    • Jan 29 2008, 2h25
    Marie wrote:
    right hat confuses people is when u claimjesus is the father but say I am wrong? yes he was human he thristed God has no thrist. when Jesus died and his job was done on earth the flesh died. the spirit went back to God. they all are wrapped up in one. Jesus. God has many names. Jesus is one of them .Jesus was the only one not born into sin because Gods spirit gave him birth. its a complicated matter which people twist. i find it unnecessary because there is one on the throne Jesus. one name we must be saved under is Jesus. Thats my point of this arguement different denominations different beliefs in minor manners is not what I am after. what saves the soul? God saves the soul. as long as we agree Jesus is God there is not need to fight each other or other denominations if they know this because we are not against each other if we believe Jesus is God. thats right trinatarians oneness people will be in heaven also as long as you both agree Jesus is God that is what saves us in the end. put aside our differences and fight the good fight of faith together against those who have no clue of who God is?

    brother rustic im not a trintarian so does it make me wrong also? we may be different but even the catholics know who God is.maybe some ways we don't agree. but almost all churches hold to one truth that Jesus is god
    the bible says you know a false spirit if it does not confess Jesus is lord. i agree with you on the cathoic rituals praying to mary, the saints is just as bad as the bible syas calling on a meduim or spiritiulist for advice which states its withcraft. im not here to fight them they atleast know who God is. thats another debate all together. what i am looking for proof that Jesus is not God

    • Arwen4CJ disse...
    • Usuário
    • Jan 29 2008, 2h28
    Love Is The Best Gift wrote:
    whats your difference? honestly when all the debates with oneness and trinatarians end what is the one thingyou both agree on? Jesus is God. ..



    This is true...both Oneness and Trinitarians do agree that Jesus is God.

    However, can a Oneness really say that the Son is God...without contradicting their doctrine that when Jesus prayed to the Father it was His flesh (human) nature praying to the Father (his divine nature)?

    Oneness claims that the Son is not eternal....that the Son is just the flesh part of Jesus, and that it only came into existence when Jesus was conceived in Mary's womb.

    Oneness also claims that only the Son (human nature of Jesus) died, and not God in the flesh that died on the cross.

    Oneness also believes that there is only one person in the Godhead, and that one person is Jesus. They believe that Jesus is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. They say that "Father, " "Son, " and "Holy Spirit" were just names for roles that the one God (Jesus) took on at different points in time.

    Trinitarians believe that Jesus is only the Son. We do not believe that Jesus is the Father or the Holy Spirit. We do not believe that "Father, " "Son, " and "Holy Spirit" are merely names for roles that the one God took on at different points in time. We believe that they are persons in the Godhead.

    Trinitarians believe that the Son is eternal, just as the Father is eternal. We believe that He has always existed. We do not believe that He just came into existence in the womb of Mary.

    Trinitarians believe that when Jesus prays to the Father, He is praying to another person. We believe that the Son is fully human and fully God. In other words, we believe that the Son is Jehovah. We believe there are three persons in the Godhead, and not just one. We believe that "Father, " "Son, " and "Holy Spirit" are three distinct persons, yet they are all one God, Jehovah.

    Does that make sense to you?


    Marie wrote
    Jehovah is the father everyone here whodenies Jesus is God because they feelthe father is God. so how can Jesus be Jehovah is Jehovah is the father? no matter which way you look at things we believe all 3 are one? now the point of this post is not to deny Jesus is not the father if thats the case how is Jehovah the father and Jesus is not? You said Jesus is jehovah so son't look to debate me.that is irrevelant to this post. when it comes down to the end. there will ne oneness and trintarians in heaven because we know who God is? Disagree allyou want thats not the point here. we know who God is. by you stating that you just killed my arguement.



    Yes, I agree that the Father is Jehovah.

    Jesus is also Jehovah....

    The reason for this is that the one God (Jehovah) is triune.

    This is how Trinitarians arrive at that conclusion:
    1. There is only one God, Jehovah.....we both agree on this, and this is what the Bible says. Actually all three theologies agree on this (Jehovah's Witness, Oneness, and Trinitarian).

    2. The Father is Jehovah (Jehovah's Witnesses and Trinitarians agree on this....Oneness does to, but in a different way - as a role that Jesus took on)

    3. The Son is Jehovah (I think that only Trinitarians agree with this. The claim that the Son is Jehovah makes no sense in Oneness theology since they claim that the Son is not eternal and is the flesh of Jesus)

    to state 3 in another way that Oneness will agree -
    Jesus is Jehovah. (Only Trinitarians and Oneness will agree to this).

    4. The Holy Spirit is Jehovah (I think that only Trinitarians agree with this, and Oneness kind of does, but they believe it in a different way - as a role that Jesus took on).

    5. The evidence that Jesus is not the Father, and the evidence that Jesus is not the Holy Spirit, and the evidence that the Father is not the Holy Spirit.

    Examples of evidence -
    Jesus prayed to the Father and referred to the Father as another
    Jesus and the Father expressed different wills when Jesus was praying just before His arrest
    Jesus referred to the Holy Spirit as "another."
    Jesus talked about being sent by the Father
    Jesus talked about asking the Father to send the Holy Spirit
    At Jesus' baptism Jesus was in the water, He saw the Holy Spirit descend on Him, and a voice from heaven spoke

    I'm not trying to debate you....I'm just making this very clear. You stated in your post that Jesus is the Father. I had to be very clear and say that I did not agree with that because I believe Oneness theology to be incorrect.

    My intention here is not to debate you....I just want to make it very clear for anyone reading this that I'm speaking from a Trinitarian perspective while you are speaking from a Oneness perspective. Again, I'm not looking for a debate with you. I'm here to defend Jesus' deity against the Jehovah's Witness doctrine. This is what I will do.

    I'm not trying to kill your argument....anyone reading this will know that I'm trying to prove to the Jehovah's Witnesses in this group that Jesus is most definitely Jehovah.


    Marie wrote
    I have to retilate but with love. See the scriputes debate me in person which i feel no need to. i think its hog wash all this little knit picking things. we do in the church. we agree basically. we all do if we believe Jesus is Jehovah that is matter matters in the end. yes if we look at it from a human point of view jesus showed him self in 3 but the spirit is not a person can not be. either way honey all 3 are wrapped in Jesus . Jesus is God thats what will save us not little things here and there. We have to know who God is? Do you deny Jesus is God? If not stand by me not against me?



    You say that the Spirit is not a person.....Jehovah's Witnesses will agree with you on this, so, when appropriate, I will defend the personhood of the Holy Spirit. I'm here to debate Jehovah's Witness doctrine, which is what you asked me to do.

    You know very well that I do believe that Jesus is Jehovah. However, I do not believe that Jesus is all there is to Jehovah.


    Marie wrote
    by the way we all may not agree in all things> i have no problem with that. we have to know who God is in order to be saved? If you believe Jesus is God state your facts to back it up. if you don't believe Jesus is God than state your facts to back it up? Don't let the devil use us to divide even in small matters of indifferences. Jesus said if they are not against us leave them alone. Now who would be against God? Those who deny who he is? If you deny Jesus is God than your against my beliefs? If you believe Jesus is God and we disagree in smaller matters it doesn't matter. we need to pull together to show those who don't know who God is? show him who he is and he is Jesus

    I love u in Jesus Name



    It is true that we do agree on many things. And it is what we agree on that we will need to unite on if we are to convince any Jehovah's Witnesses of the truth of Jesus' idenity as Jehovah.

    I still cannot say that the Trinity is a small matter. On this topic though, I do not wish to debate you. I was in a debate with Oneness Pentecostals for about 2 weeks. I don't want be against you....however, when points of disagreement come up between us, I'm going to state it.

    • Arwen4CJ disse...
    • Usuário
    • Jan 29 2008, 2h29
    Love Is The Best Gift wrote:
    right hat confuses people is when u claimjesus is the father but say I am wrong? yes he was human he thristed God has no thrist. when Jesus died and his job was done on earth the flesh died. the spirit went back to God. they all are wrapped up in one. Jesus. God has many names. Jesus is one of them .Jesus was the only one not born into sin because Gods spirit gave him birth. its a complicated matter which people twist. i find it unnecessary because there is one on the throne Jesus. one name we must be saved under is Jesus. Thats my point of this arguement different denominations different beliefs in minor manners is not what I am after. what saves the soul? God saves the soul. as long as we agree Jesus is God there is not need to fight each other or other denominations if they know this because we are not against each other if we believe Jesus is God. thats right trinatarians oneness people will be in heaven also as long as you both agree Jesus is God that is what saves us in the end. put aside our differences and fight the good fight of faith together against those who have no clue of who God is?



    I have never claimed that Jesus is the Father.

    I have claimed that Jesus is Jehovah. I have also claimed that the Father is Jehovah. This doesn't mean that I'm claiming that Jesus is the Father.

    As I have said before, you asked me to prove in this thread that Jesus is Jehovah. That is what my aim here is.

    • Arwen4CJ disse...
    • Usuário
    • Jan 29 2008, 2h33
    Love Is The Best Gift wrote:
    when Jesus died and his job was done on earth the flesh died. the spirit went back to God.


    JD wrote
    This may sound nitpicky, and it may also be a misunderstanding on my part, but there is no way you can believe that Jesus' flesh died and His spirit went up to God and still follow the same Bible I do. It is clear that He had a physical resurrection and then ascended. I am going to assume I misinterpreted you here so I feel no need to give all the verses that point to Jesus' physical resurrection and ascension.

    • Arwen4CJ disse...
    • Usuário
    • Jan 29 2008, 2h34
    Melissa wroteI have never claimed that Jesus is the Father.

    I have claimed that Jesus is Jehovah. I have also claimed that the Father is Jehovah. This doesn't mean that I'm claiming that Jesus is the Father.

    As I have said before, you asked me to prove in this thread that Jesus is Jehovah. That is what my aim here is.


    Marie wrote
    but do you agree jesus is god. how can they be the same? what about ifyou seen me ye have seen the fahter when philip asked him? in that verse its in my 2nd post.

    we dont agree fine but do you beleive jesus is god thats why i asked for your help. lay our differences aside and focus on proving jesus is god. is that so hard or your going to use the devil to destry our arguement. fine don't believe jesus is the father thats your call. do you believe he is god if not than ill fight u also

    • Arwen4CJ disse...
    • Usuário
    • Jan 29 2008, 2h35
    JD wrote
    This may sound nitpicky, and it may also be a misunderstanding on my part, but there is no way you can believe that Jesus' flesh died and His spirit went up to God and still follow the same Bible I do. It is clear that He had a physical resurrection and then ascended. I am going to assume I misinterpreted you here so I feel no need to give all the verses that point to Jesus' physical resurrection and ascension.


    Marie wrote
    it is thats not how i want it to come across. thats not why i started this post to battle melissa trinity v oneness. i believe Jesus is the father, son and holy ghost.

    he is the iam of the old testament, and the pharisee recongnized that.so they had him killed for claiming to beGod.Jesus forgave sins. only God can forgive sins.

    im not out for debating a trintarian i don't care about that now.alli care about is one thing.

    we may all be different be we in the end believe jesus is God don't we if not that i assumed wrong about the trintarians. if peoplle set aside their differences of doctrine to prove one point what harm is that. i will not deny oneness doctrine. im not out to confuse anyone at the moment in due time another post. yes he asscended up to heaven.if jehovah is the holyghost right. he impregnated mary. she gave birth to Jesus. so the holy ghost would be his father. the holy ghost is the spirit of jehovah. its the spirit that gave birth to jesus which jesus is the only one not born into sin because the holyghost aka jesus jehovah are sinless

    • Arwen4CJ disse...
    • Usuário
    • Jan 29 2008, 2h36
    Marie wroteit is thats not how i want it to come across. thats not why i started this post to battle melissa trinity v oneness. i believe Jesus is the father, son and holy ghost.

    he is the iam of the old testament, and the pharisee recongnized that.so they had him killed for claiming to beGod.Jesus forgave sins. only God can forgive sins.

    im not out for debating a trintarian i don't care about that now.alli care about is one thing.

    we may all be different be we in the end believe jesus is God don't we if not that i assumed wrong about the trintarians. if peoplle set aside their differences of doctrine to prove one point what harm is that. i will not deny oneness doctrine. im not out to confuse anyone at the moment in due time another post. yes he asscended up to heaven.if jehovah is the holyghost right. he impregnated mary. she gave birth to Jesus. so the holy ghost would be his father. the holy ghost is the spirit of jehovah. its the spirit that gave birth to jesus which jesus is the only one not born into sin because the holyghost aka jesus jehovah are sinless


    JD wrote
    I was just checking because denying Christ's physical resurrection and physical ascension is on par with denying His deity in my mind.

    • Arwen4CJ disse...
    • Usuário
    • Jan 29 2008, 2h37
    Marie wrote
    never i believe that with all my heart. my point is jesus is god. i don't care about minor differences in doctrine but some care more about that. why is it you can never depend on a borther or sister who may believe a little different than you to help you atleast prove Jesus is God? Is that so hard to ask for a brother or sister. my main concern are for those who don't know jesus is god. denominations leave out of it. you know this is why i may as well consdier my self non denomination because i consider my self one who follows jesus. Jesus said those who are not against you leave alone. thats right trinatarisn or whatever else you call your selves. im not against you. all im asking for is to prove Jesus is God. Now put your swords down at me and help me reach some who don't know or is your doctrine too imporant then proving our Jesus is God. ok this is why it is highly unlikely churches will ever agree all they care about is saying who is right and who is wrong rather than joining togther for a common cause is it so hard for you to prove Jesus is God with me? You take traditions of men before you do God?
    mean while a poor soul can burn in hell because they don't know who God is?

    • Arwen4CJ disse...
    • Usuário
    • Jan 29 2008, 2h37
    BoSox_Run wrote:

    YHWH would be Jesus.

    YWHW is not the Father.

    The OT points to YWHW being the Savior.

    Jesus himself called himself YHWH.



    I agree that Jesus is YHWH.

    However, I disagree with you about the Father.

    The Father is YHWH, just as Jesus is YHWH. If this is not the case, then the Father cannot be God! Read my post in your other thread....only YHWH is God. There are no other gods.

    LORD stands for YHWH (or Jehovah). He declares over and over again throughout the OT that He is the one and only God.

    Jesus referred to the Father as God numerous times in the NT. To say that the Father is not YHWH would make Jesus a liar.

    Now I will try to defend the Father's deity and identity as YHWH.

    I'm guessing that you're a Mormon and you use the KJV, so that is what I will use here.

    Here are some examples:
    Matthew 5:16
    14Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. 15Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. 16Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

    Question for you: If the Father is not YHWH then how can He be glorified?

    This is what YHWH says about Himself in Isaiah:
    Isaiah 48:2-11
    2For they call themselves of the holy city, and stay themselves upon the God of Israel; The LORD of hosts is his name. 3I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass. 4Because I knew that thou art obstinate, and thy neck is an iron sinew, and thy brow brass; 5I have even from the beginning declared it to thee; before it came to pass I shewed it thee: lest thou shouldest say, Mine idol hath done them, and my graven image, and my molten image, hath commanded them. 6Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare it? I have shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them. 7They are created now, and not from the beginning; even before the day when thou heardest them not; lest thou shouldest say, Behold, I knew them. 8Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb. 9For my name's sake will I defer mine anger, and for my praise will I refrain for thee, that I cut thee not off. 10Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.

    11For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.


    My question to you again is this:
    If the Father is not YHWH, how can Jesus talk about people glorifying the Father?

    Since you believe that Jesus is YHWH, but you deny that the Father is YHWH, look at part of Jesus' prayer in John 17:

    1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

    4I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    If the Father is not YHWH, how could He share in the glory of YHWH? Both Jesus and the Father participated in the same glory eternally.....if one of them is YHWH, then the other has to be as well!

    • Arwen4CJ disse...
    • Usuário
    • Jan 29 2008, 2h38
    Love Is The Best Gift wrote:

    but do you agree jesus is god. how can they be the same? what about ifyou seen me ye have seen the fahter when philip asked him? in that verse its in my 2nd post.

    we dont agree fine but do you beleive jesus is god thats why i asked for your help. lay our differences aside and focus on proving jesus is god. is that so hard or your going to use the devil to destry our arguement. fine don't believe jesus is the father thats your call. do you believe he is god if not than ill fight u also




    Marie,
    Of course I believe that Jesus is God (Jehovah, YHWH).

    That is why I have been defending Jesus' deity.

    • Arwen4CJ disse...
    • Usuário
    • Jan 29 2008, 2h40
    Melissa wrote:



    The Father is YHWH, just as Jesus is YHWH. If this is not the case, then the Father cannot be God! Read my post in your other thread....only YHWH is God. There are no other gods.

    LORD stands for YHWH (or Jehovah). He declares over and over again throughout the OT that He is the one and only God.

    Jesus referred to the Father as God numerous times in the NT. To say that the Father is not YHWH would make Jesus a liar.

    Now I will try to defend the Father's deity and identity as YHWH.

    I'm guessing that you're a Mormon and you use the KJV, so that is what I will use here.

    Here are some examples:
    Matthew 5:16
    14Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. 15Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. 16Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

    Question for you: If the Father is not YHWH then how can He be glorified?

    This is what YHWH says about Himself in Isaiah:
    Isaiah 48:2-11
    2For they call themselves of the holy city, and stay themselves upon the God of Israel; The LORD of hosts is his name. 3I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass. 4Because I knew that thou art obstinate, and thy neck is an iron sinew, and thy brow brass; 5I have even from the beginning declared it to thee; before it came to pass I shewed it thee: lest thou shouldest say, Mine idol hath done them, and my graven image, and my molten image, hath commanded them. 6Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare it? I have shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them. 7They are created now, and not from the beginning; even before the day when thou heardest them not; lest thou shouldest say, Behold, I knew them. 8Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb. 9For my name's sake will I defer mine anger, and for my praise will I refrain for thee, that I cut thee not off. 10Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.

    11For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.


    My question to you again is this:
    If the Father is not YHWH, how can Jesus talk about people glorifying the Father?

    Since you believe that Jesus is YHWH, but you deny that the Father is YHWH, look at part of Jesus' prayer in John 17:

    1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

    4I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    If the Father is not YHWH, how could He share in the glory of YHWH? Both Jesus and the Father participated in the same glory eternally.....if one of them is YHWH, then the other has to be as well!


    Marie wrote
    your words melissa now tell me we don't agree i believe this way

    The Father is YHWH, just as Jesus is YHWH. If this is not the case, then the Father cannot be God! Read my post in your other thread....only YHWH is God. There are no other gods.

    LORD stands for YHWH (or Jehovah). He declares over and over again throughout the OT that He is the one and only God.

    Jesus referred to the Father as God numerous times in the NT. To say that the Father is not YHWH would make Jesus a liar.

    thoise are your words now stop knit picking me we are on the same page.

    • Arwen4CJ disse...
    • Usuário
    • Jan 29 2008, 2h41
    Melissa wroteMarie,
    Of course I believe that Jesus is God (Jehovah, YHWH).

    That is why I have been defending Jesus' deity.


    Marie wrote
    honey then don't try to rip apart my arguement because whether you believe it or not. we believe the same. i accept that. i don't call my self anything. you now its a shame.there are so many arguements ifpeoplelike me and u can pull together we can win so many more. we believe the same believe me

    • Arwen4CJ disse...
    • Usuário
    • Jan 29 2008, 2h42
    Love Is The Best Gift wrote:
    never i believe that with all my heart. my point is jesus is god. i don't care about minor differences in doctrine but some care more about that. why is it you can never depend on a borther or sister who may believe a little different than you to help you atleast prove Jesus is God? Is that so hard to ask for a brother or sister. my main concern are for those who don't know jesus is god. denominations leave out of it. you know this is why i may as well consdier my self non denomination because i consider my self one who follows jesus. Jesus said those who are not against you leave alone. thats right trinatarisn or whatever else you call your selves. im not against you. all im asking for is to prove Jesus is God. Now put your swords down at me and help me reach some who don't know or is your doctrine too imporant then proving our Jesus is God. ok this is why it is highly unlikely churches will ever agree all they care about is saying who is right and who is wrong rather than joining togther for a common cause is it so hard for you to prove Jesus is God with me? You take traditions of men before you do God?
    mean while a poor soul can burn in hell because they don't know who God is?



    Marie,
    You have to understand that when someone asks me to defend Jesus' deity, that means that I need to defend the truth.

    I'm a trinitarian....I'm going to say what I believe.

    I'm not trying to destroy what you're trying to do as far as proving Jesus' deity is concerned.

    Like you, I want people to know who God really is....and the importance of people acknowleding that Jesus is YHWH (Jehovah).

    However, when you state that Jesus is the Father and the Holy Spirit, I will have to defend my beliefs....and this is for the same reason that I'm arguing against the JW"s and the Mormons.

    We're talking about the very truth of God here....and His nature...whether or not He is triune, who He is, etc.

    If you have read my posts in this thread, you will see that I am defending Jesus' deity....very much so.

    However, I will never defend the Oneness doctrine that Jesus is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit....I will never defend it because that is not what I believe. So if this is what you are asking me to do, I can't do it.

    I will defend that YHWH (Jehovah) is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, though.

    • Arwen4CJ disse...
    • Usuário
    • Jan 29 2008, 2h42
    Marie wrotehoney then don't try to rip apart my arguement because whether you believe it or not. we believe the same. i accept that. i don't call my self anything. you now its a shame.there are so many arguements ifpeoplelike me and u can pull together we can win so many more. we believe the same believe me


    Marie,

    My intention here is not to rip you a part. My only intention is to speak the truth.

    I'm compelled to refute Oneness theology for the same reason that I refute Jehovah's Witness doctrine, and for the same reason that I refute Mormon doctrine.

    So, when you make a Oneness statement, I will refute it.....at least in each thread. Everyone reading this thread now knows where I stand, and therefore, I will not refute you anymore about the Godhead in this thread...all right?

    Also, I have never meant to rip you apart. My issue is with Oneness theology, not you.

    • Arwen4CJ disse...
    • Usuário
    • Jan 29 2008, 2h43
    White Trash wrote
    The scriptures teach that Jesus Christ is the SON of God. I'm not sure what part of that you don't understand, but the Bible is very clear that he is Jehovah's first created SON.


    Mark 10:18
    Mark 13:32
    Mark 15:34
    John 6:38
    John 7:16
    John 8:17, 18
    John 14:28
    John 17:3
    John 20:17
    Matthew 3:16, 17
    Matthew 20:23
    Luke 4:18
    Luke 22:42
    Luke 23:46
    Acts 5:31
    Acts 7:55
    Hebrews 5:8
    Hebrews 9:24
    Revelation 1:1
    1 Corinthians 8:6
    1 Corinthians 11:3

Usuários anônimos não podem postar mensagens. É preciso fazer login ou criar uma conta para postar nos fóruns.