Trinity (Godhead) Topic 2 - Upholding Jesus' deity - refuting Unitarnism

 
  • Trinity (Godhead) Topic 2 - Upholding Jesus' deity - refuting Unitarnism

    Here is a debate with several people who were Unitarians. They did not believe that Jesus was God. They did not believe that the Holy Spirit was God. They were not Jehovah's Witnesses.

    I'm posting this to show the distinction between Unitarianism and Trinitarinism, and why I believe in Jesus' deity. This is actually going to argue against both tritheism and Oneness Pentecostalism, since most Unitarians believe that Trinitarians are tritheists or Oneness Pentecostals.

    Tritheism is belief in three different gods. Oneness Pentecostalism is the belief that only Jesus is God, and that He is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

    I will be posting my side and the other people's side....this debate would be really hard to follow otherwise, since I was responding to more than one person at once.

    This debate took place in the following group:
    http://www.groups.myspace.com/AdonaiEchad

  • Hello everyone....I kind of got into a debate with the owner of this group over the nature of the Trinity, and I know that most of the people in this group do not believe in the Trinity (maybe I'm the only one here who does).

    I don't know if there is a thread like this or not....but I would like to engage in discussion/debate over the Trinity. I would like it to be in an adult like manner, which means I'm not here to insult anyone.

    I just feel very strongly about the Trinity, and whenever I see someone who claims to be Christian, yet denies it, I really feel that I need to have a discussion with that person.

    So, if you're not interested in this topic, then please skip it. Otherwise, I'm opening it up to whomever. :)

  • Posted: May 11, 2007 9:29 AM To begin, here is a response to a topic that was in another group:


    Joseph wrote:
    Jesus is not God. I'm sure you believe that Jesus has his resurrected body. The Bible tells us that Jesus currently sits at the right hand of the father. Thats sounds very much like two entities in the same place? Can you explain how Jesus and God are the same when Messiah Jesus is currently next to the Father?

    The Bible tells us that God cannot tell a lie. Jesus says himself that no one knows the hour of his coming except God alone. If Jesus was God he would have known the hour, so was Jesus lying?

    God cannot die, Jesus died and rose again by God, not himself.

    If you want to discuss more about this you can come join my group or we can discuss here....

    http://groups.myspace.com/adonaiechad

    Sorry you have been believing lie. Jesus is not God, but you can try and refute this. Give it a shot.



    Melissa wrote:
    In response to the above quote, this is what I wrote:
    Yes, I do very much believe that Jesus has His resurrected body. I believe in His bodily resurrection.

    Yes....I believe that the Father and Jesus are two different Persons, though both are God. Because they are two different Persons, Jesus can sit at the right hand of the Father.

    Oh okay, you think I believe in Oneness Pentecostalism, that Jesus is the Father. That's not what I believe. I maintain that the Father and the Son are two different Persons, though they are the same God.

    Jesus' words were that no one knows the hour except the Father. Jesus did not use the word "God." (Matthew 24:36 and Mark 13:32).

    Okay, let me ask you a question. Where was Jesus when He said that? On earth or in heaven?

    He was on earth.....He was living as a human being, and therefore while He was on earth, He was limited to knowledge within His human timeframe. He couldn't look into the future to know the hour.

    Where was the Father? The Father was in heaven and could look in the future and know when the hour was.

    Actually, look at Revelation 1:8 and tell me who it is talking about. I'll quote it right here, as well.

    8"I am the Alpha and the Omega, " says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

    Who is speaking there?

    (Yes, I'm going somewhere with this....but i need you to answer that question. It is part of my reply to something you said in your message to me.)

    Now.....about who raised Jesus from the dead....actually all three Persons in the Godhead did...

    The Father - Romans 6:4; Acts 3:26; 1 Thessalonians 1:10
    The Son - John 2:19-21; 10:17-18
    The Holy Spirit - Romans 8:11
    God - Hebrews 13:20; Acts 13:30; 17:31

    To quote the verses about Jesus:
    John 2:19-21
    19Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
    20The Jews then said, "It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?"
    21But He was speaking of the temple of His body.

    John 10:17-18
    17"For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again.
    18"No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father."

    Edited by Arwen4CJ on 28 Jan 2008, 14:57

  • Joseph wrote:
    Sorry Melissa I was replying to this statement by you...

    "But within the NT, Jesus is attested to be the same God as the one who brought Jews out of Egypt. "


    Jews have always argued against Jesus being God, this is true.




    The above quote is what I'm responding to here:

    Okay, if Jesus isn't God, then how come He participated in creation? (Just so you know, I believe that all three Persons participated in creation, but since we are talking about Jesus here specifically...)

    Colossians 1:16-17
    16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.
    17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

    John 1:1-3
    1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

    I thought that God was the only Creator. Also, John 1:1 specifically identifies Jesus as being God. It also shows there is another Person besides Jesus who is God...because Jesus was not only God Himself, but was with God. That means there must be at least two Persons who are God.

    As to Jesus being the same God who brought the Jews out of Egpyt....1 Corinthians 10:1-5

    1For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3and all ate the same spiritual food; 4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.

    Edited by Arwen4CJ on 28 Jan 2008, 14:57

  • Melissa wrote:

    "Yes....I believe that the Father and Jesus are two different Persons, though both are God. Because they are two different Persons, Jesus can sit at the right hand of the Father.

    Oh okay, you think I believe in Oneness Pentecostalism, that Jesus is the Father. That's not what I believe. I maintain that the Father and the Son are two different Persons, though they are the same God."



    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Joseph wrote:
    How do two separate persons make one God??? What you believe is a post Biblical idea, your interpretation added upon the text.





    Melissa wrote
    "Jesus' words were that no one knows the hour except the Father. Jesus did not use the word "God." (Matthew 24:36 and Mark 13:32).

    Okay, let me ask you a question. Where was Jesus when He said that? On earth or in heaven?

    He was on earth.....He was living as a human being, and therefore while He was on earth, He was limited to knowledge within His human timeframe. He couldn't look into the future to know the hour.

    Where was the Father? The Father was in heaven and could look in the future and know when the hour was."


    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    Joseph wrote
    This is purely not what the Bible says, it is your own opinion.
    Show me where it says in the Bible that God in the flesh has a limited understanding because of his earthly body? It's rather simple to understand, Jesus didn't know the hour, because he was not God and would have lied if he said he did know the hour. Jesus clearly makes a distinction in implying only God is all knowing. Furthermore, if Jesus is God on earth and God is also in heaven, that makes two Gods. I can't believe Trinitarians can't see this!



    Melissa wrote:
    "Actually, look at Revelation 1:8 and tell me who it is talking about. I'll quote it right here, as well.
    8"I am the Alpha and the Omega, " says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
    Who is speaking there?
    (Yes, I'm going somewhere with this....but i need you to answer that question. It is part of my reply to something you said in your message to me.)"


    ---------------------------------------------------------

    Joseph wrote:
    These words apply to God, not to Christ. The one, “who is, and who was and who is to come” is clearly identified from the context. Revelation 1:4 and 5 reads: “Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, AND from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.” The separation between “the one who was, is and is to come” and Christ can be clearly seen. The one “who is, and who was and who is to come” is God.
    This verse is made slightly more ambiguous in the KJV because the word “God” is left out of the Greek text from which the KJV was translated. Nevertheless, modern textual research shows conclusively that it should be included, and modern versions do include the word “God.”

    Because of the phrase, “the Alpha and the Omega, ” many feel this verse refers to Christ. However, a study of the occurrences of the phrase indicates that the title “Alpha and Omega” applies to both God and Christ. Scholars are not completely sure what the phrase “the Alpha and the Omega” means. It cannot be strictly literal, because neither God nor Christ is a Greek letter.

    Since both God and Jesus Christ are “the Alpha and the Omega” in their own respective ways, there is good reason to believe that the title can apply to both of them, and no good reason why that makes the two into “one God.” The titles “Lord” ( Rom. 10:9), “Savior” (Luke 1:47) and “king of kings ( 1 Tim. 6:14-16) apply to both God and Christ, as well as to other men. As with “Lord, ” “Savior” and “King of kings, ” this title fits them both. God is truly the beginning and the end of all things, while Christ is the beginning and the end because he is the firstborn from the dead, the Author and Finisher of faith, the Man by whom God will judge the world, and the creator of the new ages to come ( Heb. 1:10).



    Melissa wrote:
    "To quote the verses about Jesus:
    John 2:19-21
    19Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
    20The Jews then said, "It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?"
    21But He was speaking of the temple of His body."


    --------------------------------------------------------------

    Joseph wrote:
    Many verses plainly state that it was the Father who raised Jesus, and the Bible cannot contradict itself.

    The fact that Jesus was speaking in veiled terms to an unbelieving audience should make us hesitant to build a doctrine on this verse, especially when many other clear verses say that the Father raised Jesus. For example, 1 Corinthians 6:14 states: “By his power, God raised the Lord from the dead.” Jesus was not in a teaching situation when he was speaking. Tempers were flaring and the Jews were against Jesus anyway. It was common for Jesus to speak in ways that unbelievers did not understand. Even a cursory reading of the Gospels will show a number of times when Jesus spoke and the unbelievers who heard him (and sometimes even the disciples) were confused by what he said.

    We know that Jesus was speaking in veiled terms, but what did he mean? He was almost certainly referring to the fact that he was indeed ultimately responsible for his resurrection. How so? Jesus was responsible to keep himself “without spot or blemish” and to fully obey the will of the Father. In that sense he was like any other sacrifice. A sacrifice that was blemished was unacceptable to the Lord (Lev. 22:17-20; Mal. 1:6-8).

    Christ knew that by his thoughts and actions he could guarantee his own resurrection by being sinlessly obedient unto death. That made it legally possible for God to keep His promise of resurrecting Christ, who was without sin and therefore did not deserve death, the “wages of sin.”



    Melissa wrote:
    "John 10:17-18
    17"For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again.
    18"No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.""


    -------------------------------------------------------------

    Joseph wrote
    This verse also applies to John 2:19. See answer above. I don't see the Trinity concept in this verse. Jesus laid down his life and has the ability to have it restored again because of the commandment from his Father. What is that commandment? The ability given to him from the Father, not from himself. Again, Jesus clearly makes a seperation between himself and God. If you turn a few chapters forward to John 17:3, Jesus clearly tell us that there is only one God...
    "3Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

    I think to our readers that it is clear the numerous times Yeshua(Jesus) does not claim to be God, but the son of God.

    So my challenge to you is, find me the word in the Bible that means, 'Triune God'. If there is a Trinity this should be an easy task.

    Let us have faith in our prophet Moses who himself communicated with God and told the people of Israel, "SHEMA ISREAL"(deut 6:4), also Jesus affirmed the Shema in Mark 12:28, and remember to steer clear of 4th century Catholic creeds and traditions.

    Edited by Arwen4CJ on 28 Jan 2008, 15:01
  • Pastor Scott wrote:
    Trinitarians repeat the same scripture over and over. Yet forget that Jesus prayed to the father while on earth. The Holy spirit, God, as well as Elijah were present at the configuration. Jesus repeated over and over again that he was the Son of God, not God.

    If you will put all the scripture together and think... you will come to the conclusion that God Jesus and the Holy Spirit is very seperate entitities. God sent Jesus. God sent the Holy spirit. Though the fulness of God is in each of the entities does not mean they are all three the same god or all three beings gods.

    The danger of trinitarian thinking is that you wind up worshipping the gifts and not the giver. The messanger and not the king. God is Jehovah, the creator of the world, the giver of Jesus, the bringer of the Holy spirit.

    Your verse that in which Jesus was the spiritual rock is taken completely out of context. Paul in these verses was showing the parallel of Jesus and Moses. He was not making a literal connection with this. If he were they would of used Jesus' name instead of Moses' in the begining of the scripture and Israel would of been baptised in the red sea "of Jesus" instead "of moses." If Jesus was the messiah for Israel when they came out of Egypt there would be no need for him to come later.

    It is good to dig deep into scriptures but you can dig so deep that you lose the meaning and fall out of context. Which is why I do not use other peoples study notes. I dont use a concordance either. Just read it, scripture is in plain english.

    Edited by Arwen4CJ on 28 Jan 2008, 15:01

  • Jospeh wrote:
    How do two separate persons make one God??? What you believe is a post Biblical idea, your interpretation added upon the text.



    Melissa wrote
    If there is only one God...both the OT and the NT attest to that, but the Father is clearly identified as God, Jesus is clearly identified as God, and the Holy Spirit is clearly identified as God.....then the only conclusion a person can come to is that the one God is triune.

    Jesus said that there was only one God - Mark 12:29-31.
    29Jesus answered, "The foremost is, 'HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD; 30AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.' 31"The second is this, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' There is no other commandment greater than these."

    Jesus identified the Father as God in the way that He talked about Him. I'm not going to list anything here, because most people believe that the Father is God.

    Jesus talked about the Holy Spirit on the same level as He referred to Himself and the Father.

    Matthew 28:18-20
    18And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

    First of all, notice how Jesus said that....He said "in the name of"...not names...so He was putting the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit on the same level with one another.

    Also consider the way that Jesus talks about the Holy Spirit:

    John 14:25-26
    25"These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you. 26"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

    (there's more that Jesus says about the Holy Spirit in chapter 16, but this should be enough to show you how Jesus referred to the Holy Spirit.)

    Jesus Himself also claimed to be God.
    John 8:53-
    53"Surely You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too; whom do You make Yourself out to be?" 54Jesus answered, "If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, 'He is our God'; 55and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I will be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word. 56"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." 57So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" 58Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." 59Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.

    John 10:25-30
    25Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. 26"But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30"I and the Father are one."

    (There are also more verses than this in which Jesus claims to be God...but this should suffice).

    Okay, first off, note that Jesus says that He and the Father are one.....this is the kind of "one" He was referring to when Jesus said that God was "one" in Mark 12. This has to be Jesus' definition of one for Deuteronomy 6:4, otherwise He wouldn't have quoted it and also called Himself God and also said that He and the Father were one. When Jesus talks about God being "one, " He is talking about a plural unity or a united one. There's no other way that all of these quotes from Jesus make sense.

    Secondly, notice that Jesus said that no one could snatch them out of His hand....He said the same thing about the Father's hand....but it's pretty significant that Jesus said it about Himself....since Isaiah says that about God too. (This jumped out at me when I was reading through Isaiah because I knew what Jesus said in John.)

    When I did a search for it just now, I found another place where God said the same thing about Himself.

    Deuteronomy 32:39
    39'See now that I, I am He,
    And there is no god besides Me;
    It is I who put to death and give life
    I have wounded and it is I who heal,
    And there is no one who can deliver from My hand.

    That's almost the same thing that Jesus was saying in John....that Jesus gives eternal life and that no one can deliver out of His hand.

    Isaiah 43:13
    13"Even from eternity I am He,
    And there is none who can deliver out of My hand;
    I act and who can reverse it?"



    Jospeh wrote:
    This is purely not what the Bible says, it is your own opinion.
    Show me where it says in the Bible that God in the flesh has a limited understanding because of his earthly body? It's rather simple to understand, Jesus didn't know the hour, because he was not God and would have lied if he said he did know the hour. Jesus clearly makes a distinction in implying only God is all knowing. Furthermore, if Jesus is God on earth and God is also in heaven, that makes two Gods. I can't believe Trinitarians can't see this!



    Melissa wrote
    Sure....Philippians 2:5-8
    5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.



    Joseph wrote:
    These words apply to God, not to Christ. The one, “who is, and who was and who is to come” is clearly identified from the context. Revelation 1:4 and 5 reads: “Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, AND from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.” The separation between “the one who was, is and is to come” and Christ can be clearly seen. The one “who is, and who was and who is to come” is God.
    This verse is made slightly more ambiguous in the KJV because the word “God” is left out of the Greek text from which the KJV was translated. Nevertheless, modern textual research shows conclusively that it should be included, and modern versions do include the word “God.”

    Because of the phrase, “the Alpha and the Omega, ” many feel this verse refers to Christ. However, a study of the occurrences of the phrase indicates that the title “Alpha and Omega” applies to both God and Christ. Scholars are not completely sure what the phrase “the Alpha and the Omega” means. It cannot be strictly literal, because neither God nor Christ is a Greek letter.

    Since both God and Jesus Christ are “the Alpha and the Omega” in their own respective ways, there is good reason to believe that the title can apply to both of them, and no good reason why that makes the two into “one God.” The titles “Lord” ( Rom. 10:9), “Savior” (Luke 1:47) and “king of kings ( 1 Tim. 6:14-16) apply to both God and Christ, as well as to other men. As with “Lord, ” “Savior” and “King of kings, ” this title fits them both. God is truly the beginning and the end of all things, while Christ is the beginning and the end because he is the firstborn from the dead, the Author and Finisher of faith, the Man by whom God will judge the world, and the creator of the new ages to come ( Heb. 1:10).



    Melissa wrote
    I'm not using a KJV Bible. I'm using the NASB, which is a modern translation.

    Actually, verse 8 is tied to the subject of Revelation 1:7. Here are both verses together:
    7BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen. 8"I am the Alpha and the Omega, " says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

    The Father wasn't pierced ever....Jesus was. Not only that, but Jesus said that He would come on the clouds several times in the NT, as several of the letters in the NT also affirm. If you don't believe me that verse 8 is about Jesus, then I suggest we look at all the "Alpha and Omega/Beginning and End/First and Last occurances throughout the whole Bible.

    You claim that there can be two First and Last/Alpha and Omega/Beginning and End's without the two Persons being of the same essence and being (both being God.) My question is...how could Jesus be all of those things if He's not God?

    Revelation 1:8
    8"I am the Alpha and the Omega, " says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

    Alpha/Omega = Almighty = The One who is to come = Lord God

    Revelation 21:6
    6Then He said to me, "It is done I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost.

    Alpha/Omega = Beginning/End = God

    Revelation 22:12
    12"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.

    Since you believe that God (who you believe is just the Father) is one Alpha and Omega and Jesus is another....then tell me which on you believe Revelation 22:12 is referring to. I have a reason for this. I'm curious as to your response.

    Alpha/Omega = The One who is coming = Beginning/End = First/Last

    Revelation 1:17-18
    17When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.

    First/Last = Living.. “I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever!”

    Isaiah 44:6
    6"Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:
    'I am the first and I am the last,
    And there is no God besides Me.

    If Jesus is declared to be first and last in Revelation, then who does that say that Jesus has to be? I don't see how Jesus could be First and Last without also being God.

    Read Isaiah 48:12-16

    Other verses of interest:
    Isaiah 48:12
    12"Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called;
    I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.

    John 1:49
    49Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

    So King of Israel = first and last = and therefore God (according to Isaiah 44:6)

    So who Nathanael was acknowledging that Jesus was God in John 1:49?

    Isaiah 41:4
    4"Who has performed and accomplished it,
    Calling forth the generations from the beginning?
    'I, the LORD, am the first, and with the last I am He.'"

    Revelation 2:8
    8"And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this:

    In a previous message you said that God cannot die.....the Father didn't die and come back to life, but Jesus did. So...according to Revelation 2:8, the first and last was dead and has come back to life....

    Claiming to be the First/Last, Alpha/Omea, Beginning/End is a claim to be eternal - having no beginning or end. The Persons of the Godhead have always existed and always will exist. God is eternal. Since Jesus is also the first and last, that makes Him eternal....and God is the only one I know of who is eternal (who has no beginning or end)...so that would therefore make Jesus God.

    LOL of course the title "Alpha and Omega" doesn't literally refer to two Greek letters. When I read that title, to me it means eternal...having no beginning or end.

    I would argue that the titles "Savior" and "King of kings" can only refer to God...which means that since Jesus is called by them too, the fact that He is called those things in the NT is further evidence of His full deity.



    Joseph wrote:
    Many verses plainly state that it was the Father who raised Jesus, and the Bible cannot contradict itself.

    The fact that Jesus was speaking in veiled terms to an unbelieving audience should make us hesitant to build a doctrine on this verse, especially when many other clear verses say that the Father raised Jesus. For example, 1 Corinthians 6:14 states: “By his power, God raised the Lord from the dead.” Jesus was not in a teaching situation when he was speaking. Tempers were flaring and the Jews were against Jesus anyway. It was common for Jesus to speak in ways that unbelievers did not understand. Even a cursory reading of the Gospels will show a number of times when Jesus spoke and the unbelievers who heard him (and sometimes even the disciples) were confused by what he said.

    We know that Jesus was speaking in veiled terms, but what did he mean? He was almost certainly referring to the fact that he was indeed ultimately responsible for his resurrection. How so? Jesus was responsible to keep himself “without spot or blemish” and to fully obey the will of the Father. In that sense he was like any other sacrifice. A sacrifice that was blemished was unacceptable to the Lord (Lev. 22:17-20; Mal. 1:6-8).

    Christ knew that by his thoughts and actions he could guarantee his own resurrection by being sinlessly obedient unto death. That made it legally possible for God to keep His promise of resurrecting Christ, who was without sin and therefore did not deserve death, the “wages of sin.”




    Melissa wrote:
    I gave you other verses which showed that not only did the Father raise Jesus from the dead, but the Holy Spirit and Jesus did too.... Yeah, but John clearly writes what Jesus meant when He was talking about...



    Joseph wrote:
    This verse also applies to John 2:19. See answer above. I don't see the Trinity concept in this verse. Jesus laid down his life and has the ability to have it restored again because of the commandment from his Father. What is that commandment? The ability given to him from the Father, not from himself. Again, Jesus clearly makes a seperation between himself and God. If you turn a few chapters forward to John 17:3, Jesus clearly tell us that there is only one God...
    "3Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

    I think to our readers that it is clear the numerous times Yeshua(Jesus) does not claim to be God, but the son of God.

    So my challenge to you is, find me the word in the Bible that means, 'Triune God'. If there is a Trinity this should be an easy task.

    Let us have faith in our prophet Moses who himself communicated with God and told the people of Israel, "SHEMA ISREAL"(deut 6:4), also Jesus affirmed the Shema in Mark 12:28, and remember to steer clear of 4th century Catholic creeds and traditions.



    Melissa wrote:
    I acknowledge that...but consider the whole Gospel of John as a whole. Jesus clearly claimed that He Himself was God as well. Jesus did not deny that the Father was God.

    A claim to be the Son of God is a claim to be God.

    The word "trinity" is not in the Bible....but the concept behind it is...there is only one God, the Father is called God, Jesus is called God, the Holy Spirit is called God....therefore God must be triune.

    Edited by Arwen4CJ on 28 Jan 2008, 15:05

  • Pastor Scott wrote:
    Trinitarians repeat the same scripture over and over. Yet forget that Jesus prayed to the father while on earth. The Holy spirit, God, as well as Elijah were present at the configuration. Jesus repeated over and over again that he was the Son of God, not God.

    If you will put all the scripture together and think... you will come to the conclusion that God Jesus and the Holy Spirit is very seperate entitities. God sent Jesus. God sent the Holy spirit. Though the fulness of God is in each of the entities does not mean they are all three the same god or all three beings gods.

    The danger of trinitarian thinking is that you wind up worshipping the gifts and not the giver. The messanger and not the king. God is Jehovah, the creator of the world, the giver of Jesus, the bringer of the Holy spirit.

    Your verse that in which Jesus was the spiritual rock is taken completely out of context. Paul in these verses was showing the parallel of Jesus and Moses. He was not making a literal connection with this. If he were they would of used Jesus' name instead of Moses' in the begining of the scripture and Israel would of been baptised in the red sea "of Jesus" instead "of moses." If Jesus was the messiah for Israel when they came out of Egypt there would be no need for him to come later.

    It is good to dig deep into scriptures but you can dig so deep that you lose the meaning and fall out of context. Which is why I do not use other peoples study notes. I dont use a concordance either. Just read it, scripture is in plain english.



    Melissa wrote:
    Yes, I agree that Jesus prayed to the Father while on earth. the Father is God too.

    Jesus said He was the Son of God, but I take that as a claim to be fully God, and acting as a Son to the Father.....I think of it more in terms of being in the "order" of God.

    I agree that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three different Persons, while still affirming that they are the same God. And yes, I agree that the Father sent Jesus, and that the Holy Spirit was sent as well....but I believe that both the sender and the one sent was God.

    How can "the fullness of God in each of the enties" not mean that they are all the same God?

    Yeah, well I believe that Jehovah is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit....not just the Father.

    Edited by Arwen4CJ on 28 Jan 2008, 15:08
  • Church Fell Away wrote:
    The reason people believe in a trinity is Yeshua (Jesus) was called God.
    That plus this verse in Torah which they believe says God is one. If God is one then Yeshua being called god must be the most High. Seeing that the most said he was not a man they then reason that God must be more than one being. Thus Three in one. This is all caused by a mistranslation.

    Deuteronomy 6:4
    Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD


    “The LORD our God is one LORD” like this it gives you the impression God is one.
    Because God seems to be the subject and the LORD seems to be descriptive. They God as the subject.

    “The LORD” translated from the name Adonai which means the Lord.
    Adonai replaced the name of the Most High YHVH. Changing The LORD back to the name YHVH automatically changes the subject because it is a name. Then when YHVH becomes the subject God becomes the descriptive.

    Hear, O Israel: YHVH our God is one, YHVH

    “YHVH our God is one, YHVH” Now its not God that is one but the Most High God YHVH is one!

    YHVH the creator is one not three!

    This blows the trinity out of the water!!!!!

    YHVH is one but what about God, is God one? The Title God is not a name it is a title, and it has different meanings. These are the three words in the old Testament which was translated God or god.

    ‘elahh (Aramaic) (el-aw') god, God god, heathen deity God (of Israel)

    'elohiym (el-o-heem');(Hebrew) (plural) rulers, judges divine ones angels gods (plural intensive - singular meaning) god, goddess godlike one works or special possessions of God the (true) God

    'el (ale);(Hebrew)god, god-like one, mighty one mighty things in nature strength, power

    There is no word for God that is not plural meaning there is more than one

    De 10:17
    For the LORD(Yah) your God(Elohiym) is God (Elohiym) of gods(Elohiym), and Lord of lords, a great God(ale), a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

    This is why we call The Father YHVH the Most high God (Elohiym) because he is not the only God (Elohiym).

  • Church Fell Away wrote:
    The reason people believe in a trinity is Yeshua (Jesus) was called God.
    That plus this verse in Torah which they believe says God is one. If God is one then Yeshua being called god must be the most High. Seeing that the most said he was not a man they then reason that God must be more than one being. Thus Three in one. This is all caused by a mistranslation.

    Deuteronomy 6:4
    Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD


    “The LORD our God is one LORD” like this it gives you the impression God is one.
    Because God seems to be the subject and the LORD seems to be descriptive. They God as the subject.

    “The LORD” translated from the name Adonai which means the Lord.
    Adonai replaced the name of the Most High YHVH. Changing The LORD back to the name YHVH automatically changes the subject because it is a name. Then when YHVH becomes the subject God becomes the descriptive.

    Hear, O Israel: YHVH our God is one, YHVH

    “YHVH our God is one, YHVH” Now its not God that is one but the Most High God YHVH is one!

    YHVH the creator is one not three!

    This blows the trinity out of the water!!!!!

    YHVH is one but what about God, is God one? The Title God is not a name it is a title, and it has different meanings. These are the three words in the old Testament which was translated God or god.

    ‘elahh (Aramaic) (el-aw') god, God god, heathen deity God (of Israel)

    'elohiym (el-o-heem');(Hebrew) (plural) rulers, judges divine ones angels gods (plural intensive - singular meaning) god, goddess godlike one works or special possessions of God the (true) God

    'el (ale);(Hebrew)god, god-like one, mighty one mighty things in nature strength, power

    There is no word for God that is not plural meaning there is more than one

    De 10:17
    For the LORD(Yah) your God(Elohiym) is God (Elohiym) of gods(Elohiym), and Lord of lords, a great God(ale), a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

    This is why we call The Father YHVH the Most high God (Elohiym) because he is not the only God (Elohiym).
    .



    Melissa wrote

    Okay, how can there be more than one God? So then, you believe that Jesus is a different God from the Father?

    I still say that The Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit all have to be YHVH.

    Jesus has to be YHVH. This is exactly what I mean when I say "God." I don't mean anything else.

    The Trinity affirms that YHVH is the only God. The Father is YHVH, Jesus is YHVH, and the Holy Spirit is YHVH.

    I don't see any other way that the Bible, both OT and NT would work. So, we believe that "the Most High God" is one in the sense that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are the same God, all of them YHVH.

    Another way of saying it is this:
    Trinitarians believe that there is one God (YHVH) and within the unity of the Godhead there are three coequal and coeternal persons --the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit....all of the same essence and being.

    Since that is the definition of the Trinity, it still doesn't contradict Deuteronomy 6:4, even with your explanation.

    The reason for this is because of the unity within the Godhead that Trinitarians believe in.

  • Church Fell Away wrote:

    Ex 7:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a (((God))) to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

    Is moses in the trinity?

  • Posted: May 11, 2007 3:58 PM

    Church Fell Away wrote:
    Ex 7:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a (((God))) to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

    Is moses in the trinity?



    Melissa wrote
    of course not.

  • Church Fell Away wrote:

    Why was he called God?

  • Church Fell Away wrote:
    Why was he called God?


    Melissa wrote
    let me go look at the verse and read it in context

    I think that by saying that, Moses would seem as though he were God in the Pharaoah's eyes....Moses will carry God's message to the Pharaoah....and Aaron would act as his "prophet, " speaking for him.

  • Church Fell Away wrote
    De 18:18
    I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

    isn't that what YHVH said Yeshua would be?

  • Church Fell Away wrote:
    De 18:18
    I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

    isn't that what YHVH said Yeshua would be?



    Melissa wrote
    Yeah...but Yeshua, as is more than just a prophet, He's a prophet, but more than that.

  • Church Fell Away wrote
    This is true but he is not YHVH.

  • Church Fell Away wrote:
    This is true but he is not YHVH.



    Melissa wrote
    I disagree...Jesus identified Himself as YHVH:

    Mark 6:50
    50for they all saw Him and were terrified. But immediately He spoke with them and said to them, "Take courage; it is I, do not be afraid."

    John 6:35
    35Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.

    John 6:41-42
    41Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, "I am the bread that came down out of heaven." 42They were saying, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, 'I have come down out of heaven'?

    John 6:48-51
    48"I am the bread of life. 49"Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50"This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51"I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.

    John 8:12
    12Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, "I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life."

    John 8:24
    24"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

    John 8:28
    28So Jesus said, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.

    John 8:58
    58Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." 59Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.

    John 9:5
    5"While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world."

    John 10:7-10
    7So Jesus said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. "All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9"I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10"The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.

    John 10:11
    11"I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.

    John 10:14
    14"I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me,

    John 11:25-26
    25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"

    John 14:6
    6Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

    John 15:1
    1"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.

    John 15:5
    5"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.

    John 18:5
    5They answered Him, "Jesus the Nazarene." He said to them, "I am He." And Judas also, who was betraying Him, was standing with them. 6So when He said to them, "I am He, " they drew back and fell to the ground.

    John 5:18
    18For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

    I suppose I should have tied that last I AM post quote list with Exodus 3:14 so that it made sense with what I was trying to do.

    14God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

    There's a footnote that says this:
    Exodus 3:14 Related to the name of God, YHWH, rendered LORD, which is derived from the verb HAYAH, to be

  • Melissa wrote:


    Church Fell Away wrote:
    Why was he called God?





    let me go look at the verse and read it in context

    I think that by saying that, Moses would seem as though he were God in the Pharaoah's eyes....Moses will carry God's message to the Pharaoah....and Aaron would act as his "prophet, " speaking for him.





    Joseph wrote
    The main point here is the usage of the hebrew word 'elohim'. The word God in this verse of Ex 7:1 is translated as elohim which has a meaning for something mighty and great. Moses was the agent of God, he stood in Gods place as a agent, that does not mean he was God. Jesus is in the same place, he is the agent of God, another parallel between Moses and Jesus. This verse is an example that a agent of God can take on the name God, and not be God.

    Lexicons of Hebrew do not list Elohim as a collective noun. Its usage shows that it never means a combination of many in one. Elohim of course can mean “gods” when it refers to pagan deities. It can also refer to a single pagan god, like Milchom or Chemosh. As a royal title it can mean the single person, the Messiah (Ps. 45:6). Elohim never once refers to a group of gods as one.

  • Joseph wrote
    The main point here is the usage of the hebrew word 'elohim'. The word God in this verse of Ex 7:1 is translated as elohim which has a meaning for something mighty and great. Moses was the agent of God, he stood in Gods place as a agent, that does not mean he was God. Jesus is in the same place, he is the agent of God, another parallel between Moses and Jesus. This verse is an example that a agent of God can take on the name God, and not be God.

    Lexicons of Hebrew do not list Elohim as a collective noun. Its usage shows that it never means a combination of many in one. Elohim of course can mean “gods” when it refers to pagan deities. It can also refer to a single pagan god, like Milchom or Chemosh. As a royal title it can mean the single person, the Messiah (Ps. 45:6). Elohim never once refers to a group of gods as one.



    Melissa wrote
    The Trinity isn't "a group of gods as one."

    However, okay, I can see how you are viewing Jesus as "God" in the same way that Moses is called "God" in the above verse....i think I can get that....

    But even if you claim that, you are still faced with all of the verses in which Jesus Himeslf claims to be God...YHVH. And you also need to explain John 1:1 and several other verses.

  • Melissa wrote
    There is one question that I would like you to address specifically:

    Since you believe that God (who you believe is just the Father) is one Alpha and Omega and Jesus is another....then tell me which on you believe Revelation 22:12 is referring to. I have a reason for this. I'm curious as to your response.

    I don't want to get too far ahead of you guys, because I've already given a lot of verses and such, and I want to give you time to reply to them, but I was wondering what you thought of Revelation 22:12...who you thought it was referring to.

    I encourage you guys to look it up in context so that you can give me your answer.

    Here's what the actual verse says, though:
    12"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.

  • Church Fell Away wrote:
    Isa 9:6
    For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


    Mighty God

    The Hebrew word used here is El. El is not a name it is Adjective, describing a trait.

    la 'el (ale);god, god-like one, mighty one mighty things in nature strength, power.

    Mighty God simply means Great Power. Notice how the translators capitalized God trying to lead you to think Ale refers to God the Creator. If you see a tornado you could say its Ale, If you see strong man you would call him Ale. Ale is used to refer to a trait of something and is not a statement of Deity!

    The Mighty God is incorrectly translated from one word Ale. If you would say "God the creator is Ale" (God is a mighty force) it would used correctly. If you try to use Ale to declare a God then your incorrect.


    2. The everlasting Father

    Mt 23:9
    And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

    Yahshuah Commanded us to call no man on Earth Father because there is one Father in Heaven, and Yahshuah was called everlasting father in Isaiah. Father in the Hebrew has several different meanings one of which is Ruler or Chief (King). The Key to understanding this is to examine how Isaiah uses the title Father.


    Isa 22:20
    And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will call my servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah:

    Isa 22:21
    And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father(King) to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.

    Isa 22:22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.


    Key of David means the thrown of Israel.

    Eliakim was to be given the Key of David, what he opens cannot be shut what he closes cannot be opened. Eliakim was to be called Father which simply means King.


    Re 3:7
    And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;


    Key of David means the thrown of Israel.

    Yahshuah was given the Key of David, what he open no man shuts what he closes no man opens Yahshuah was to be called Father which simply means King. Yahshuah was called everlasting because his kingdom has no end.

    Father

    ba 'ab (awb); Noun Masculine, father of an individual of God as father of his people head or founder of a household, group, family, or clan ancestor grandfather, forefathers -- of person of people originator or patron of a class, profession, or art of producer, generator (fig.) of benevolence and protection (fig.) term of respect and honor ruler or chief (spec.)

  • Melissa wrote:
    The Trinity isn't "a group of gods as one."

    However, okay, I can see how you are viewing Jesus as "God" in the same way that Moses is called "God" in the above verse....i think I can get that....

    But even if you claim that, you are still faced with all of the verses in which Jesus Himeslf claims to be God...YHVH. And you also need to explain John 1:1 and several other verses.




    Joseph wrote:
    Let me expand on this... the word elohim never refers to a group of persons or gods as one.

    Lets clarify the Definition of Trinity as this Doctrine can draw confusion.

    Trinitarianism—The doctrine of the Trinity: the unity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit as three persons (or hypostases) in one Godhead. Trinitarians make the distinction that they are not tritheists. A tritheist worships three Gods; a Trinitarian worships one God who is manifest in three persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

    If Jesus was God the son in the flesh here on earth and God was God the Father in Heaven. And this was happening at the same time, you now have two Gods! That wouldn't make only two persons in one Godhead because the Father is always God, not a person. The name God is used some 11, 000 times in the Bible and never means Triune, which you yourself admit that there is no word for 'Triune God'.

    You missed the point. Elohim can be used as a word to mean something mighty and great. Only God is YHVH, not Jesus.

    Sorry there is NO verse where Jesus calls himself YHVH. If you have some lets see if they qualify, but so far you haven't shown anything sufficient.

    John 1:1 is one of my favorite chapters because it goes against the Trinity.

    "Here is a very remarkable and informative fact: If one had a copy of an English Bible in any of the eight English versions available prior to 1582, one would gain a very different sense from the opening verses of John: “In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God. All things came into being through it, and without it nothing was made that was made.”

    “All things came into being through it [the word], ” not “through him.” And so those English versions did not rush to the conclusion, as does the King James Version of 1611 (influenced by the Roman Catholic Rheims version, 1582) and its followers, that the word was a person, the Son, before the birth of Jesus. If all things were made through “the word, ” as an “it, ” a quite different meaning emerges. The “word” would not be a second person existing alongside God the Father from eternity. The result: one of the main planks of traditional systems about members in the Godhead would be removed.

    There is more to be said about that innocent sentence: “In the beginning was the word.” There is no justification in the original Greek for placing a capital “W” on “word, ” and thus inviting readers to think of a person. That is an interpretation imposed on the text, added to what John wrote. But was that what he intended? The question is, what would John and his readers understand by “word”? Quite obviously there are echoes of Genesis 1:1ff here: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth...and God said [using His word], ‘Let there be light.’ ” “God said” means “God uttered His word, ” the medium of His creative activity, His powerful utterance. Psalm 33:6 had provided commentary on Genesis: “By the word of the Lord the heavens were made.” And so in John 1:1 God expressed His intention, His word, His self-revealing, creative utterance. But absolutely nothing in the text, apart from the intrusive capital letter on “word” in our versions, turning word into a proper noun, would make us think that God was in company with another person or Son. The word which God spoke was in fact just “the word of God, ” the expression of Himself. And one’s word is not another person, obviously." -- Anthony Buzzard
    http://www.mindspring.com/~anthonybuzzard/john1.htm

    Here is a link to an audio file that goes into more detail on John 1...

    John 1:1 and the Trinity CLICKHERE

    We really do not need an army of experts to help us understand that simple sentence. Jesus refers again to the Father as “the one who alone is God” (John 5:44). These are echoes of the pure, strict monotheism of the Hebrew Bible and thus of the Jews for centuries. God remains in the New Testament “the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” (Rom. 15:6; 2 Cor. 1:3; 11:31; Eph. 1:3; 1 Pet. 1:3; Rev. 1:6). Jesus had, and has, a God, and Jesus’ God is the Father, the one and only God of John 17:3. How exactly like the Old Testament: “Have we not all One Father? Has not one God created us?” (Mal. 2:5). “You are great. You alone are God” (Ps. 86:10). “You alone whose name is the Lord are the Most High over all the earth” (Ps. 83:18). How beautifully this harmonizes with Paul’s great creedal declaration: “For us Christians there is one God, the Father, and none other than he” (see 1 Cor. 8:4, 6). That too is an unambiguous statement about how many persons there are in the Godhead: only one.

  • Melissa wrote:
    There is one question that I would like you to address specifically:

    Since you believe that God (who you believe is just the Father) is one Alpha and Omega and Jesus is another....then tell me which on you believe Revelation 22:12 is referring to. I have a reason for this. I'm curious as to your response.

    I don't want to get too far ahead of you guys, because I've already given a lot of verses and such, and I want to give you time to reply to them, but I was wondering what you thought of Revelation 22:12...who you thought it was referring to.

    I encourage you guys to look it up in context so that you can give me your answer.

    Here's what the actual verse says, though:
    12"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.



    Joseph wrote
    To understand Rev 22:12 we must take into context what the next verse says (Rev 22:13) and expand upon into what context is the title, "the first and last", used throughout the Bible.

    The phrase, “the First and the Last, ” is a title that is used five times in the Bible, twice in Isaiah of God (44:6; 48:12) and three times in Revelation of the Son (1:17; 2:8; 22:13). Trinitarians sometimes make the assumption that since the same title applies to both the Father and the Son, they must both be God. However, there is no biblical justification on which to base that assumption. When the whole of Scripture is studied, one sees that the same titles are used for God, Christ and men. Examples include “Lord” (see Rom. 10:9) and “Savior” (see Luke 1:47) and “King of kings” (see 1 Tim. 6:14-16). If other titles apply to God, Christ and men without making all of them into “one God, ” then there is no reason to assume that this particular title would mean they were one God unless Scripture specifically told us so, which it does not.

    In the Old Testament, God truly was “the First and the Last.” The meaning of the title is not specifically given, but the key to its meaning is given in Isaiah 41:4, in which God says He has called forth the generations of men, and was with the first of them and is with the last of them.

    Isaiah 41:4
    “Who has done this and carried it through, calling forth the generations from the beginning? I, the Lord—with the first of them and with the last—I am he.” Thus, the Bible connects the phrase “the First and the Last” with calling forth the generations.

    While God was the one who called forth the generations in the Old Testament, He has now conferred that authority on His Son. Thus, it is easy to see why the Lord Jesus is called “the First and the Last” in the book of Revelation. It will be Jesus Christ who will call forth the generations of people from the grave to enter in to everlasting life. God GAVE Jesus authority to raise the dead (John 5:25-27). His voice will raise all dead Christians (1 Thess. 4:16-17), and he will change our bodies into new glorious bodies (Phil. 3:20-21). However, even when Jesus said he had the authority to raise the dead, he never claimed he had that authority inherently because he was God. He always said that his Father had given authority to him. While teaching about his authority, Jesus Christ was very clear about who was the ultimate authority: “The Son can do nothing by himself…the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son…For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in himself. And He has given him authority to judge” (John 5:19, 22, 26 and 27). If Jesus had the authority to raise the dead because he was in some way God, he never said so. He said he had his authority because his Father gave it to him. With the authority to raise the generations came the title associated with the existence of the generations, and thus after his resurrection Jesus Christ is called “the First and the Last.”

  • Joseph wrote
    Melissa,

    If Jesus is YHVH as you claim, why was he tempted?, because Christ is said in the Scriptures to have been “tempted of the devil, ” Matt. 4:1. But “God can not be tempted with evil.” James 1:13.

    Do you have something more than the regular Trinitarian answer of, because Jesus was God in a flesh and blood body? :-)

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