The Death of Dynamic Range - people against Loudness War » Discussions

New albums that don't suffer from loudness war?

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- relu84 said...
- User
- 7 Aug 2007, 20:10
New albums that don't suffer from loudness war?

I recently discovered the Loudness War problem while searching for the reason new albums sound like crap.

So I decided to ask a question over here - do you know of any recent albums produced "properly", that don't suffer from compression and limiting?

I'm interested in rock and metal music mostly, but any other will do well too (pop/jazz/blues/anything).

I can recommend the latest Iron Maiden album, A Matter Of Life And Death. The producer, Kevin Shirley, mixed the album and decided (with the band) that it sounds good enough and they did not do mastering (the decision was made after the previous album, Dance of Death, which probably has the poorest sound ever ;)) - the vocals on the album sound a little bit poor, but that's how this band records today (live in studio - usualy one take only). The album sounds brilliant in comparison to other today's CD's - there is no over-compression, the drums sound like they should, etc.

I thought this album would start a new trend in the music industry to not master albums at all. But I was wrong... I wonder how other albums would sound from other artists, who do not care about sounding 'live' on a studio album...

Eh, this post is getting too long, so I'll end ;)

Thanks in advance for any "properly" produced albums!

ps - what can we do to get more attention to the problem?

-- Przemek

[quote][b][user]relu84[/user][/b] said: I recently discovered the Loudness War problem while searching for the reason new albums sound like crap. So I decided to ask a question over here - do you know of any recent albums produced "properly", that don't suffer from compression and limiting? I'm interested in rock and metal music mostly, but any other will do well too (pop/jazz/blues/anything). I can recommend the latest Iron Maiden album, A Matter Of Life And Death. The producer, Kevin Shirley, mixed the album and decided (with the band) that it sounds good enough and they did not do mastering (the decision was made after the previous album, Dance of Death, which probably has the poorest sound ever ;)) - the vocals on the album sound a little bit poor, but that's how this band records today (live in studio - usualy one take only). The album sounds brilliant in comparison to other today's CD's - there is no over-compression, the drums sound like they should, etc. I thought this album would start a new trend in the music industry to not master albums at all. But I was wrong... I wonder how other albums would sound from other artists, who do not care about sounding 'live' on a studio album... Eh, this post is getting too long, so I'll end ;) Thanks in advance for any "properly" produced albums! ps - what can we do to get more attention to the problem? -- Przemek[/quote]

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- Lexx66 said...
- User
- 29 Sep 2007, 10:35
New albums that don't suffer from loudness war?

I can advise to try buying vinyl versions of new albums. They are usually mastered differently than cd versions and don't suffer from heavy limiting.
One example is widely discussed RHCP's Stadium Arcadium. I bought the vinyl recently, and it's not bad. Maybe still not the best sounding album in my collection, but one thing I can say for sure: it's dynamic range is really huge! I tried to make a copy on R2R tape, and when the VU-meters were around -3 dB, the peak +6 dB indicators were flashing wildly!

Unfortunately, the vinyls are quite expensive today.

[quote][b][user]Lexx66[/user][/b] said: I can advise to try buying vinyl versions of new albums. They are usually mastered differently than cd versions and don't suffer from heavy limiting. One example is widely discussed RHCP's Stadium Arcadium. I bought the vinyl recently, and it's not bad. Maybe still not the best sounding album in my collection, but one thing I can say for sure: it's dynamic range is really huge! I tried to make a copy on R2R tape, and when the VU-meters were around -3 dB, the peak +6 dB indicators were flashing wildly! Unfortunately, the vinyls are quite expensive today.[/quote]

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- vitos said...
- User
- 11 Dec 2007, 21:04
I don't know if you are interested in this, but I find The Triptic by Sweet Noise mastered quite well. I like the nice dynamics of this album building the atmosphere and balance kept between ethnical voices, electronic and hard rock instruments.

And moving to another genres - movie soundtracks can sound very pleasant and clean. Soundtracks for two last parts of "Pirates of the Caribbean" by Hans Zimmer are a good example.

[quote][b][user]vitos[/user][/b] said: I don't know if you are interested in this, but I find [album artist=Sweet Noise]The Triptic[/album] by [artist]Sweet Noise[/artist] mastered quite well. I like the nice dynamics of this album building the atmosphere and balance kept between ethnical voices, electronic and hard rock instruments. And moving to another genres - movie soundtracks can sound very pleasant and clean. Soundtracks for two last parts of "Pirates of the Caribbean" by [artist]Hans Zimmer[/artist] are a good example.[/quote]
Edited by vitos on 25 Feb 2008, 18:43

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- wrdlbrmpf said...
- User
- 22 Dec 2007, 18:58
Been looking through my library - these are all the albums from the last three years I have with a replaygain album gain of -7dB or better:

Amon Tobin - Foley Room (2007) -6.81 dB
Efdemin - Efdemin (2007) -3.87 dB
Nina Nastasia & Jim White - You Follow Me (2007) -3.06 dB
Shellac - Excellent Italian Greyhound (2007) -3.25 dB
The Tuss - Confederation Trough (2007) -4.28 dB
The Tuss - Rushup Edge (2007) -6.92 dB
Boards Of Canada - Trans Canada Highway (2006) -5.17 dB
Burial - Burial (2006) -5.33 dB
Donald Fagen - Morph The Cat (2006) -4.97 dB
jesu - conqueror (2006) -5.26 dB
Kuricorder Pops Orchestra - Yotsuba&♪ (2006) -1.68 dB
Matmos - The Rose Has Teeth In The Mouth Of A Beast (2006) -6.44 dB
Nina Nastasia - On Leaving (2006) -2.30 dB
The Knife - Silent Shout (2006) -6.65 dB
栗コーダポップスオーケストラ - よつばと♪組曲「冬将軍」 -5.23 dB
Autechre - Untilted (2005) -3.56 dB
Broadcast - Tender Buttons (2005) -6.93 dB
Coil - The Ape Of Naples (2005) -6.92 dB
Guapo - Black Oni (2005) -5.24 dB
Kid606 - Resilience (2005) -1.73 dB
The Books - Lost And Safe (2005) -6.03 dB
The Flashbulb - Kirlian Selections (2005) -6.46 dB
Wilderness - Wilderness (2005) -4.84 dB

For reference: -3 to -7 is what would have been normal for a pop/rock cd 10-15 years ago. The current worst offenders are around -13.

[quote][b][user]wrdlbrmpf[/user][/b] said: Been looking through my library - these are all the albums from the last three years I have with a [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replay_Gain]replaygain[/url] album gain of -7dB or better: Amon Tobin - Foley Room (2007) -6.81 dB Efdemin - Efdemin (2007) -3.87 dB Nina Nastasia & Jim White - You Follow Me (2007) -3.06 dB Shellac - Excellent Italian Greyhound (2007) -3.25 dB The Tuss - Confederation Trough (2007) -4.28 dB The Tuss - Rushup Edge (2007) -6.92 dB Boards Of Canada - Trans Canada Highway (2006) -5.17 dB Burial - Burial (2006) -5.33 dB Donald Fagen - Morph The Cat (2006) -4.97 dB jesu - conqueror (2006) -5.26 dB Kuricorder Pops Orchestra - Yotsuba&♪ (2006) -1.68 dB Matmos - The Rose Has Teeth In The Mouth Of A Beast (2006) -6.44 dB Nina Nastasia - On Leaving (2006) -2.30 dB The Knife - Silent Shout (2006) -6.65 dB 栗コーダポップスオーケストラ - よつばと♪組曲「冬将軍」 -5.23 dB Autechre - Untilted (2005) -3.56 dB Broadcast - Tender Buttons (2005) -6.93 dB Coil - The Ape Of Naples (2005) -6.92 dB Guapo - Black Oni (2005) -5.24 dB Kid606 - Resilience (2005) -1.73 dB The Books - Lost And Safe (2005) -6.03 dB The Flashbulb - Kirlian Selections (2005) -6.46 dB Wilderness - Wilderness (2005) -4.84 dB For reference: -3 to -7 is what would have been normal for a pop/rock cd 10-15 years ago. The current worst offenders are around -13.[/quote]

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- oliver-gvl said...
- User
- 11 Mar 2008, 00:46
I think Stormlord - The Gorgon Cult is pretty amazing for an album released in 2004. I has hardly any clipping (less than 10 for the whole album) and the average RMA power is between -14dB and -13dB.

Average RMA power and clipping values were calculated with Amadeus Pro.

- Music fans and Musicians against the RIAA!

[quote][b][user]oliver-gvl[/user][/b] said: I think [artist]Stormlord[/artist] - [album artist=Stormlord]The Gorgon Cult[/album] is pretty amazing for an album released in 2004. I has hardly any clipping (less than 10 for the whole album) and the average RMA power is between -14dB and -13dB. Average RMA power and clipping values were calculated with [url=http://www.hairersoft.com/AmadeusPro/AmadeusPro.html]Amadeus Pro[/url].[/quote]

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- [Deleted user] said...
- User
- 2 Apr 2008, 06:09
Software

Is there any free software out there that can be used to calculate these figures?

I'm contemplating setting up a site simple site where people can post these values for albums they own. Interesting information...

[quote][b][user][/user][/b] said: Is there any free software out there that can be used to calculate these figures? I'm contemplating setting up a site simple site where people can post these values for albums they own. Interesting information...[/quote]

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- wrdlbrmpf said...
- User
- 2 Apr 2008, 10:22
Replaygain can be calculated with Winamp or foobar2000. There should be a couple of tools for RMS, but I can't think of any right now.

[quote][b][user]wrdlbrmpf[/user][/b] said: Replaygain can be calculated with Winamp or foobar2000. There should be a couple of tools for RMS, but I can't think of any right now.[/quote]

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- [Deleted user] said...
- User
- 7 Apr 2008, 16:10
soo....

would anyone be interested in such a site?

[quote][b][user][/user][/b] said: would anyone be interested in such a site?[/quote]

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- oliver-gvl said...
- User
- 28 Apr 2008, 05:19
Sure, a site cataloging album's average RMS and number of clipped samples would be quite useful.

BTW, I use Amadeus Pro on my Mac to calculate these values. It's shareware but you can use the program indefinitely (saving files and some advanced stuff is disabled).

- Music fans and Musicians against the RIAA!

[quote][b][user]oliver-gvl[/user][/b] said: Sure, a site cataloging album's average RMS and number of clipped samples would be quite useful. BTW, I use [url=http://www.hairersoft.com/AmadeusPro/AmadeusPro.html]Amadeus Pro[/url] on my Mac to calculate these values. It's shareware but you can use the program indefinitely (saving files and some advanced stuff is disabled).[/quote]

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- Nisstyre56 said...
- User
- 4 Jun 2008, 19:53
Does anyone know of any great metal with High Dynamic Range? Also, what are some decently affordable and good record players?

[quote][b][user]Nisstyre56[/user][/b] said: Does anyone know of any great metal with High Dynamic Range? Also, what are some decently affordable and good record players?[/quote]

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- SaltyMcSushi said...
- User
- 5 Jun 2008, 06:08
Its cheaper to get an old turntable. New turntables wouldn't require as much technical work but they are much more expensive.

You should listen to more Neil Young.

[quote][b][user]SaltyMcSushi[/user][/b] said: Its cheaper to get an old turntable. New turntables wouldn't require as much technical work but they are much more expensive.[/quote]

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- oliver-gvl said...
- User
- 6 Jun 2008, 23:52
Nisstyre56 said:
Does anyone know of any great metal with High Dynamic Range?
Any old Annihilator album (ex: King Of The Kill)
Death albums except the last one
Meshuggah - I
Dark Suns - Existence + Grave Human Genuine
Agalloch - The Mantle
Mors Principium Est - Liberation = Termination
Capharnaum - Fractured
Longing for Dawn - One Lonely Path

These have been compressed but not too much:
Judas Priest - Painkiller
Swallow The Sun - Hope
Lost Horizon - Awakening The World
Diablo - Eternium

Can't think of any more at the moment.

- Music fans and Musicians against the RIAA!

[quote][b][user]oliver-gvl[/user][/b] said: [quote][b][user]Nisstyre56[/user][/b] said: Does anyone know of any great metal with High Dynamic Range?[/quote] Any old [artist]Annihilator[/artist] album (ex: King Of The Kill) [artist]Death[/artist] albums except the last one [artist]Meshuggah[/artist] - I [artist]Dark Suns[/artist] - Existence + Grave Human Genuine [artist]Agalloch[/artist] - The Mantle [artist]Mors Principium Est[/artist] - Liberation = Termination [artist]Capharnaum[/artist] - Fractured [artist]Longing For Dawn[/artist] - One Lonely Path These have been compressed but not too much: [artist]Judas Priest[/artist] - Painkiller [artist]Swallow The Sun[/artist] - Hope [artist]Lost Horizon[/artist] - Awakening The World [artist]Diablo[/artist] - Eternium Can't think of any more at the moment.[/quote]

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- Nisstyre56 said...
- User
- 15 Jun 2008, 19:44
Thanks for the suggestions, the only one I already listen to is Meshuggah, not a huge fan though.

[quote][b][user]Nisstyre56[/user][/b] said: Thanks for the suggestions, the only one I already listen to is Meshuggah, not a huge fan though.[/quote]

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- Bolshevized said...
- User
- 22 Jun 2008, 00:58
Apparently Franz Ferdinand's self-titled album is respectable (I looked at a waveform of Take Me Out and it indeed looks rather respectable for a 2004 release). Another album that I was surprised to find had good dynamics is This Is Hardcore by Pulp. Yeah, it's 1998, but by then most releases were already affected to varying degrees.

Maybe I'll make a list of more and report back later! (By the way, wrdlbrmpf, surprised to see IDM isn't as bad as most rock these days. Venetain Snares is a big exception though, so is Chris Clark.)

Oh, one last thing concerning vinyl versions. You can find vinyl rips (aka needledrops) online sometimes. Personally, while I have nothing against vinyl, I have an objection to having to buy an entirely new setup just to get the sound that should be on the CD in the first place - so I don't!

[quote][b][user]Bolshevized[/user][/b] said: Apparently Franz Ferdinand's self-titled album is respectable (I looked at a waveform of Take Me Out and it indeed looks rather respectable for a 2004 release). Another album that I was surprised to find had good dynamics is This Is Hardcore by Pulp. Yeah, it's 1998, but by then most releases were already affected to varying degrees. Maybe I'll make a list of more and report back later! (By the way, wrdlbrmpf, surprised to see IDM isn't as bad as most rock these days. Venetain Snares is a big exception though, so is Chris Clark.) Oh, one last thing concerning vinyl versions. You can find vinyl rips (aka needledrops) online sometimes. Personally, while I have nothing against vinyl, I have an objection to having to buy an entirely new setup just to get the sound that should be on the CD in the first place - so I don't![/quote]

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- nevermind_1991 said...
- User
- 13 Jul 2008, 16:51
[spam]

[spam]

Fuck forum signatures lol.

[quote][b][user]nevermind_1991[/user][/b] said: [spam][/quote]
Edited by hjbardenhagen on 25 Dec 2010, 14:30

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- relu84 said...
- User
- 7 Aug 2008, 11:12
I was pretty surprised with Galahad - Empires Never Last. The album replay gain is at -6.50 which is exceptionaly good for a rock album. And it was released in 2006!

Thanks to this, the album sounds really great, there's space for everything. Too bad well mastered albums are so few today... unfortunately, the loudness war doesn't seem to end!

[quote][b][user]relu84[/user][/b] said: I was pretty surprised with Galahad - Empires Never Last. The album replay gain is at -6.50 which is exceptionaly good for a rock album. And it was released in 2006! Thanks to this, the album sounds really great, there's space for everything. Too bad well mastered albums are so few today... unfortunately, the loudness war doesn't seem to end![/quote]

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- wrdlbrmpf said...
- User
- 7 Aug 2008, 19:45
Ivan Pavlov vs Richard Chartier - Chessmachine

album gain: +10.84dB
album peak: 1.308854 (mp3)

Now that's what I call dynamic!

[quote][b][user]wrdlbrmpf[/user][/b] said: Ivan Pavlov vs Richard Chartier - Chessmachine album gain: +10.84dB album peak: 1.308854 (mp3) Now that's what I call dynamic![/quote]

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- Nisstyre56 said...
- User
- 20 Aug 2008, 22:46
All of Porcupine Tree's albums are mastered impeccably

[quote][b][user]Nisstyre56[/user][/b] said: All of Porcupine Tree's albums are mastered impeccably[/quote]

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- relu84 said...
- User
- 24 Aug 2008, 17:50
Yeah, Porcupine Tree's albums sound exceptionaly good, even though they're also pretty loud (In Absentia, Deadwing), but if I didn't look at the wave in Adobe Audition, I wouldn't know ;)

Now, Steven Wilson is mastering everything himself (Fear of a Blank Planet, the new solo album by Richard Barbieri, and a new Wilson's solo project), cause he was pissed with the loudness race. Maybe some people will look to Steven Wilson as an example, that you CAN make a record that's not loud as hell and be succesfull.

Oh, I'd also like to add that I love Porcupine Tree's DVD 5.1 surround releases. I don't have good enough speakers to fully enjoy it, but they still sound extremely good and use the 5.1 speaker system to full extent. Haven't found any other DVD-Audio release sounding that good, though I had high expectations regarding Dream Theater's "Systematic Chaos" - sure, it sounds great (you can hear Rudess's keyboard a lot more clearly) but suffers from... teh loudness war!

[quote][b][user]relu84[/user][/b] said: Yeah, Porcupine Tree's albums sound exceptionaly good, even though they're also pretty loud (In Absentia, Deadwing), but if I didn't look at the wave in Adobe Audition, I wouldn't know ;) Now, Steven Wilson is mastering everything himself (Fear of a Blank Planet, the new solo album by Richard Barbieri, and a new Wilson's solo project), cause he was pissed with the loudness race. Maybe some people will look to Steven Wilson as an example, that you CAN make a record that's not loud as hell and be succesfull. Oh, I'd also like to add that I love Porcupine Tree's DVD 5.1 surround releases. I don't have good enough speakers to fully enjoy it, but they still sound extremely good and use the 5.1 speaker system to full extent. Haven't found any other DVD-Audio release sounding that good, though I had high expectations regarding Dream Theater's "Systematic Chaos" - sure, it sounds great (you can hear Rudess's keyboard a lot more clearly) but suffers from... teh loudness war![/quote]

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- Quicksand227 said...
- User
- 28 Aug 2008, 15:50
does anyone know whether Tool and Opeth are affected, too?
goddamn, i didn't know of this!
how can people be that stupid...

www.quicksandproject.bandcamp.com/
http://soundcloud.com/quicksandproject
http://www.guguchu.com/QuicksandProject
www.last.fm/music/Quicksand+Project

[quote][b][user]Quicksand227[/user][/b] said: does anyone know whether Tool and Opeth are affected, too? goddamn, i didn't know of this! how can people be that stupid...[/quote]

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- Nisstyre56 said...
- User
- 28 Aug 2008, 19:53
Well Steve Wilson produced Opeth's Damnation/Deliverance albums as well as Blackwater Park. Dunno if he mastered them, but they sound pretty damn good anyway.

[quote][b][user]Nisstyre56[/user][/b] said: Well Steve Wilson produced Opeth's Damnation/Deliverance albums as well as Blackwater Park. Dunno if he mastered them, but they sound pretty damn good anyway.[/quote]

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- Nisstyre56 said...
- User
- 28 Aug 2008, 20:22
Also, all of Godspeed You! Black Emperor's stuff is mastered very nicely, with a wide dynamic range on everything.

Cept' for maybe Yanqui U.X.O , that one seems kinda loud.

[quote][b][user]Nisstyre56[/user][/b] said: Also, all of Godspeed You! Black Emperor's stuff is mastered very nicely, with a wide dynamic range on everything. Cept' for maybe Yanqui U.X.O , that one seems kinda loud.[/quote]

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- [Deleted user] said...
- User
- 12 Oct 2008, 17:29
re: Larson H's idea for a web site posting RMS fugures

Larson, I think the web site is a great idea. It seems to me it could be a good way to spread the message of what's lacking in modern recordings.

[quote][b][user][/user][/b] said: Larson, I think the web site is a great idea. It seems to me it could be a good way to spread the message of what's lacking in modern recordings.[/quote]

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- Nepthys said...
- User
- 11 Jan 2009, 15:38
The Seldom Seen Kid by Elbow. They received all sorts of awards for it, so that's probably also a good sign regarding the loudness war.

I read Chinese Democracy is quite dynamic as well.

And the new Franz Ferdinand album. It's such a relief not to be attacked by the noise for once.

Ni!

[quote][b][user]Nepthys[/user][/b] said: The Seldom Seen Kid by Elbow. They received all sorts of awards for it, so that's probably also a good sign regarding the loudness war. I read Chinese Democracy is quite dynamic as well. And the new Franz Ferdinand album. It's such a relief not to be attacked by the noise for once. [/quote]

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- jarizappa said...
- User
- 17 Apr 2009, 10:01
dredg

First: Hi I'm new to the group!
All albums by Dredg are mastered quite nicely, here's an example:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Peak RMS Filename
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-5.97 dB -18.45 dB Bug Eyes.mp3
-7.55 dB -17.96 dB Catch Without Arms.mp3
-6.72 dB -17.23 dB Hungover on a Tuesday.mp3
-7.98 dB -17.96 dB Jamais Vu.mp3
-7.32 dB -19.03 dB Matroshka.mp3
-6.33 dB -16.89 dB Not That Simple.mp3
-7.85 dB -18.77 dB Ode to the Sun.mp3
-7.91 dB -17.26 dB Planting Seeds.mp3
-6.68 dB -16.87 dB Sang Real.mp3
-7.54 dB -17.43 dB Spitshine.mp3
-7.22 dB -17.79 dB Tanbark.mp3
-6.35 dB -16.79 dB Uplifting News (Non-LP Version).mp3
-6.35 dB -16.76 dB Zebraskin.mp3

Just for "fun" I added Death magnetic, as a comparison:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Peak RMS Filename
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

over -5.53 dB That Was Just Your Life.mp3
over -5.35 dB The End of the Line.mp3
over -4.35 dB Broken, Beat & Scarred.mp3
over -4.00 dB The Day That Never Comes.mp3
over -4.18 dB All Nightmare Long.mp3
over -4.11 dB Cyanide.mp3
over -6.45 dB The Unforgiven III.mp3
over -4.00 dB The Judas Kiss.mp3
over -5.18 dB Suicide & Redemption.mp3
over -3.76 dB My Apocalypse.mp3

(over means over 0 dB)

[quote][b][user]jarizappa[/user][/b] said: First: Hi I'm new to the group! All albums by [artist]dredg[/artist] are mastered quite nicely, here's an example: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peak RMS Filename ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -5.97 dB -18.45 dB Bug Eyes.mp3 -7.55 dB -17.96 dB Catch Without Arms.mp3 -6.72 dB -17.23 dB Hungover on a Tuesday.mp3 -7.98 dB -17.96 dB Jamais Vu.mp3 -7.32 dB -19.03 dB Matroshka.mp3 -6.33 dB -16.89 dB Not That Simple.mp3 -7.85 dB -18.77 dB Ode to the Sun.mp3 -7.91 dB -17.26 dB Planting Seeds.mp3 -6.68 dB -16.87 dB Sang Real.mp3 -7.54 dB -17.43 dB Spitshine.mp3 -7.22 dB -17.79 dB Tanbark.mp3 -6.35 dB -16.79 dB Uplifting News (Non-LP Version).mp3 -6.35 dB -16.76 dB Zebraskin.mp3 Just for "fun" I added Death magnetic, as a comparison: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peak RMS Filename ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- over -5.53 dB That Was Just Your Life.mp3 over -5.35 dB The End of the Line.mp3 over -4.35 dB Broken, Beat & Scarred.mp3 over -4.00 dB The Day That Never Comes.mp3 over -4.18 dB All Nightmare Long.mp3 over -4.11 dB Cyanide.mp3 over -6.45 dB The Unforgiven III.mp3 over -4.00 dB The Judas Kiss.mp3 over -5.18 dB Suicide & Redemption.mp3 over -3.76 dB My Apocalypse.mp3 (over means over 0 dB)[/quote]

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