Message from the Last.fm Staff

 
    • [Deleted user] said...
    • User
    • 12 Apr 2010, 08:21
    Darkvizard666 said:

    IMo its just a group of admins with far-left political views on personal crusade against anything they disagree with.


    Wrong !
    It is just your plain brain-washing, politically correct bulshit that is being fed like a plague throughout the whole western world.

    For some reason pictures and quotes from defunct criminals of a communistic predisposition (see che guevara, mao etc) are politically correct while same things coming from right-wing people are not...

    Criticizing christianity, the bible is something acceptable and a sign of an open mind- which is 100% true and it should be- however criticizing islam is a sign of bigotry, close-mindedness and xenofobia. Apparently the way the bible speaks about woman is degrading (and it is), but the way islam treats women is just a sign of cultural diversity.

    The mods are just obeying the orders from 'above' and applying them according to the "standards" of our "heavenly" "democratic societies", because, clearly, they are incapable of thinking beyond what they are fed through media channels...

  • nevermind

    I can’t think of any greater happiness than to be with you all the time, without interruption, endlessly, even though I feel that here in this world there’s no undisturbed place for our love, neither in the village nor anywhere else; and I dream of a grave, deep and narrow, where we could clasp each other in our arms as with clamps, and I would hide my face in you and you would hide your face in me, and nobody would ever see us any more.
  • I hope "love" will get the same treatment as did "hate" from the staff on this site. :D

    boo
    • PoEVIL said...
    • User
    • 12 Apr 2010, 09:52
    It's good to stop mindless trolling. This group is intellectual and I hope it remains active and intellectual

    Panta Rei
  • And here is some proof that mods have no idea of how "hate" is different from objective criticism:
    Hi, I have deleted this group, because it does not comply to the community guidelines by being "against" something, therefore promoting hatred. I would suggest that you refrain from creating such groups in the future. Regards, Thaelvyn.
    The group was called "metalheads against antifa" and it had "this is not a nazi group" right on top of the main page. I wonder if all the "antifa" group got deleted same way, since they have "anti" in their name.

  • Yeah, that is quite a weak reason, and small-minded. Does that mean they would also delete groups like Europeans against the world, Scrobblers against Bush, Against animal testing, Against discrimination? Surely not. To be against something does not mean to promote hatred against something. It is indeed strange they would delete Metalheads against antifa but not Antifa themselves.

    The community guidelines are not very clear on this. They say to be respectful: Be respectful to each other. Do not vent your frustrations at other members, whether through your comments or material you post on the site. There is zero tolerance for predatory behaviour, disparaging or defamatory comments, threats, harassment, illegal activities, invading privacy, propaganda, racial hatred, offensive cultural behaviour, vulgar or obscene content, or other inappropriate behaviour or the revealing of other members' personal information.In the terms of use, it says under Acceptable Use (6) that You will not use the Properties to:
    1. Upload, post, e-mail, transmit, display, copy, distribute, promote, or otherwise communicate to the public: (...) abusive, libellous, defamatory, obscene, vulgar, offensive, pornographic, profane, racist, sexually explicit, ethnically or culturally offensive, indecent, or that promotes violence, racial hatred, terrorism, or illegal acts, or is otherwise objectionable in Last.fm's sole discretion
    Now I wonder what the hell offensive cultural behaviour is, and when the hell something is ethnically or culturally offensive.

    Personally, I find deletion of groups for said reasons to be offensive. And that's just the problem with prohibiting things that are offensive: it is prone to abuse for censoring purposes. Not good.

    Meshuggah: "A combination of the powerful and the avant-garde, the band is as visceral and imposing an act as you’ll ever see and hear, guitarists Fredrik Thordendal, Mårten Hagström, and bassist Dick Lövgren hammering out lurching, monolithic riffs as they headbang in robotic unison, vocalist Jens Kidman barking out surreal verses like a twisted drill sergeant while gesticulating like a puppet on strings. - Adrien Begrand (PopMatters)
    • [Deleted user] said...
    • User
    • 12 Apr 2010, 14:05
    Hi,

    I sent an other PM to Darkvizard666, clarifying the situation about the deletion of the group (because I made it very unclear and I apologize for this).

    To all:
    We have no intention of removing your freedom of speech, it is important for you, and for us. We just ask you to do it in a respectful manner. To give an example:
    It is not ok to say "All <insert race, religion, whatever> are sh*t and they should die".
    But it is ok to say:
    "I disagree with <insert race, religion, whatever> because of <valid argument that is not trolling>"

    The recent events that you have seen and interpreted as an attack to your rights of speech are mainly an incentive to start again on clean grounds. The group which got deleted contained such "not ok to say" comments, in numbers too large for us to just delete them one by one.

    I hope this clarify the situation for everyone. If you have any questions, PM me.

    Thae.

  • Darkvizard666 said:
    And here is some proof that mods have no idea of how "hate" is different from objective criticism:
    Hi, I have deleted this group, because it does not comply to the community guidelines by being "against" something, therefore promoting hatred. I would suggest that you refrain from creating such groups in the future. Regards, Thaelvyn.
    The group was called "metalheads against antifa" and it had "this is not a nazi group" right on top of the main page. I wonder if all the "antifa" group got deleted same way, since they have "anti" in their name.


    This is somewhat confusing, especially if being "against" "something" is against community guidelines. There are dozens of groups that are against "something", they should delete anti-antigroups also if that's the only criteria they have, as well as pretty much every group showing up on this search.

    Remember, it isn't fair until the insensitive and culturally offensive hate group Anti-Panda is deleted!

    ....


    On a more serious note though, I would like to see a clear definition of culturally offensive behavior.

    There's no problem a few frag grenades can't fix.

    Cookies for Godlessness
    My Twin in life, love, mind, and music: ISoS
    The snake that cannot shed its skin perishes. So do the spirits who are prevented from changing their opinions; they cease to be spirit. -Nietzsche
  • That clears up some things, as I do not know what the content of the page was prior to deletion.

    Could you possibly clarify the questions we have about the community guidelines?

    There's no problem a few frag grenades can't fix.

    Cookies for Godlessness
    My Twin in life, love, mind, and music: ISoS
    The snake that cannot shed its skin perishes. So do the spirits who are prevented from changing their opinions; they cease to be spirit. -Nietzsche
    • [Deleted user] said...
    • User
    • 12 Apr 2010, 14:24
    RageofAnath said:
    On a more serious note though, I would like to see a clear definition of culturally offensive behavior.


    It would be any comments / actions who could offend the cultural beliefs of a user. This is quite a large meaning, and some people are more easily offended than others. If someone reports an issue with such comments, we are looking if the comment is really meant to be offensive and not just mistaken for a badly phrased opinion. As said in my previous post, mindless hatred no, constructive comment yes.

    This group offend the cultural beliefs of some users, but as far as I understand, this is not your primary intention(to offend), and you appear to be open to discussion. This is why this one haven't been deleted, and why I contacted the group leader to make sure that he would do his best so it wouldn't happen.

  • This is why this one haven't been deleted, and why I contacted the group leader to make sure that She would do his best so it wouldn't happen.

    Oh noes, I call out for gender discrimination! Surely there are no womens on the interwebs :(

  • Haha, I knew you'd be the one to point it out, Lea. :)

    There's no problem a few frag grenades can't fix.

    Cookies for Godlessness
    My Twin in life, love, mind, and music: ISoS
    The snake that cannot shed its skin perishes. So do the spirits who are prevented from changing their opinions; they cease to be spirit. -Nietzsche
  • I had actually written a post first on that, but then I said what the hell and never posted it. Damn.

    I can’t think of any greater happiness than to be with you all the time, without interruption, endlessly, even though I feel that here in this world there’s no undisturbed place for our love, neither in the village nor anywhere else; and I dream of a grave, deep and narrow, where we could clasp each other in our arms as with clamps, and I would hide my face in you and you would hide your face in me, and nobody would ever see us any more.
  • RageofAnath said:
    Haha, I knew you'd be the one to point it out, Lea. :)


    Of course, who else is the gender police around here? :P

    I had actually written a post first on that, but then I said what the hell and never posted it. Damn.


    Lea 1 - 0 Vampy

  • Thaelvyn said:
    Hi,

    I sent an other PM to Darkvizard666, clarifying the situation about the deletion of the group (because I made it very unclear and I apologize for this).

    To all:
    We have no intention of removing your freedom of speech, it is important for you, and for us. We just ask you to do it in a respectful manner. To give an example:
    It is not ok to say "All <insert race, religion, whatever> are sh*t and they should die".
    But it is ok to say:
    "I disagree with <insert race, religion, whatever> because of <valid argument that is not trolling>"

    The recent events that you have seen and interpreted as an attack to your rights of speech are mainly an incentive to start again on clean grounds. The group which got deleted contained such "not ok to say" comments, in numbers too large for us to just delete them one by one.

    I hope this clarify the situation for everyone. If you have any questions, PM me.

    Thae.


    You just read the shoutbox...you had to go deeper, in the discussion area, full of articles and quotes...but you did not...sorry but I aspect more from a moderator, I say this because for a long time I have been a subscriber, giving to you all my respect and money to proceed with your nice work...
    Deleting a group in a such superficially manner is something wrong...and I don't think you will be able to demonstrate your decision is good and balanced. I don't have any interest to teach you howt a moderator should act, you will learn by yourself but the public judgment is really clear, so far.
    Ciao

  • KhaosWolf666, I propose you take that up with the staff in person, rather than here on the forum.

    Meshuggah: "A combination of the powerful and the avant-garde, the band is as visceral and imposing an act as you’ll ever see and hear, guitarists Fredrik Thordendal, Mårten Hagström, and bassist Dick Lövgren hammering out lurching, monolithic riffs as they headbang in robotic unison, vocalist Jens Kidman barking out surreal verses like a twisted drill sergeant while gesticulating like a puppet on strings. - Adrien Begrand (PopMatters)
  • Waldheri said:
    KhaosWolf666, I propose you take that up with the staff in person, rather than here on the forum.


    I consider the discussion over, I just wanted to reply once in public, since a lot of imprecisions and excuses regarding MAI closure have been openly recalled here by mod. I will not come back to the matter here anymore.

    Thanks

    Ciao

  • LeaTelamon said:
    Anyway, I think the huge influx of people is because Anath sent a mass message to all members about this to encourage people to not feed on the hate-mongering.


    Yep, that's exactly what got my attention and why I came back to the forum. Very much enjoying Anath's posts on the website right now. I think I will stay.

  • RageofAnath said:
    What I am REALLY curious about, is directed at the leaders of the groups that were axed. Did the staff provide a warning - "clean up or you're out", or any reasons? Or did you just find your group GONE when you logged in?


    Scyphe here (under different account since I was muted for 7 days):

    No warning. I logged in and the group was gone, I couldn't post anything anywhere (gagged for 7 days) with a warning from Thaelvyn. The reason was that HAND_OV_DOOM reported MAI because he didn't like that bands he enjoyed were connected with MAI.

    Thaelvyn's reason to delete the group and silence me for 7 days was because I hadn't moderated the shoutbox from nitwits that wrote racist remarks ("bomb mecca", "kill all muslims" or something like that). The discussions and articles contained no hate-spreading since the subject of the group was the ideology known as islamism, part of Islam.

    The group had been reported innumerable times before but no action was taken since no rules had been broken. I can only guess that the policy of last.fm has changed regarding freedom of speech and the bar for what they consider "spreading hatred" is considerably lower than it used to be.

    I was not given a warning to clean up the shoutbox and comments to discussions/articles. If I had been warned I would've simply cleared the entire shoutbox, cleaned up comments in the discussion/article area and added rules to the front page, but I was never given that chance. Nothing I wrote, no article I made/compiled had any hate preaching going on (unless you count posting news articles that are upsetting to be preaching hatred). The irony is that I was exposing the hatred islamists have for non-muslims as well as moderate/secular muslims in the west as well as apostasy. I have extensive knowledge about islam, the quran, hadiths, tafsir, sira and sunnah, and I always make a point of not generalising or attacking muslims as a group. My concern has always been the islamists because they're the ones that is trying to control the muslims by force, using fear as an instrument to subdue the average peaceful muslim.

    Needless to say, what really annoyed me was the complete deletion of MAI without any way to rescue all the work put into articles and building the group over the years. Now I have to start all over again with the help of Khaoswolf.

    The difference now is that moderation from our side will be a lot more active (meaning we'll have to play by last.fm's rules and gimp freedom of speech) and make it clear that the group is not a political group, we're not supporting left, right, ns, ultranationalist, communist, socialist, conservative, liberal politics, we're simply focusing on exposing islamism and the threat it poses to the rest of the world, with Europe as the center of attention.

    To the people saying "good riddance, one less hate group on last.fm", I seriously doubt you visited Last.fm and read the discussions that Khaoswolf, myself and other members posted. At the most you saw some bickering in the shoutbox.

    You're all welcome to join the new group once the gag has been lifted (should be tomorrow, I'll need time to come up with a new name that doesn't offend last.fm.. I suppose I could call it safe and go for The Anti-Islamist Phenomenon, but that's almost like stealing so I'll come up with something original instead).

    Thanks for the word,
    Scyphe

    http://www.last.fm/user/Scyphe

    • [Deleted user] said...
    • User
    • 13 Apr 2010, 17:44
    No comment ...

    Anyone can write into a group's shoutbox whatever they like. Non-members that are against that group can sabotage it by writing a shitload of bad comments and cause its deletion. The leader of that group might not have an internet connection of several days and the group will be deleted without appeal. Also, banning someone for not moderating in time ? WTF ?

    Maybe the last.fm staff spends 24/7 in front of the computer screen, but they will also have to consider the fact that other people may have a life outside last.fm...

  • So, if I understand correctly, the shoutbox is a liability. Therefore, I suggest closing it when trolls are spotted on the horizon.

    Luckily we haven't had much trolling in the shoutbox for quite a while.

    The awesome link of flaming death, epic destruction and pancakes.
    Warning, clicking this link might cause defects like enlightenment, godlessness and knowledge
  • Its also restricted; only members may post. If we have a problem, we can delete the shouts and boot the member who posted it.


    Oh and as an aside for one of the above comments, our name is taken directly from Behemoth's album/track The Antichristian Phenomenon Classifying it as an "anti" group is actually a little touchy for that reason, as technically we can claim that we are a pro-Behemoth group rather than an Anti-Christian group. Maybe it would be a good idea to find a band with anti-muslim messages to structure the group around.

    There's no problem a few frag grenades can't fix.

    Cookies for Godlessness
    My Twin in life, love, mind, and music: ISoS
    The snake that cannot shed its skin perishes. So do the spirits who are prevented from changing their opinions; they cease to be spirit. -Nietzsche
  • RageofAnath said:
    Its also restricted; only members may post. If we have a problem, we can delete the shouts and boot the member who posted it.


    As moderator/leader you can keep the shoutbox safe from non-members and you can delete also the shouts.
    Me and Scyphe tried to keep open the shoutbox to allow everyone to express opinions, even if in contrast with MAI, a strong moderation was not in our intentions. As I stated before, freedom of speech has been always considered inviolable.

  • Yeah, I'd honestly prefer an open shoutbox as well. We've had issues with that in the past though.

    We certainly won't silence any member though, even if they happen to be Christian (true story), the only exceptions being spamming trolls such as the issue we had a few months ago.

    There's no problem a few frag grenades can't fix.

    Cookies for Godlessness
    My Twin in life, love, mind, and music: ISoS
    The snake that cannot shed its skin perishes. So do the spirits who are prevented from changing their opinions; they cease to be spirit. -Nietzsche
  • I talked about this with Anath, and we concluded that imposing membership requirements for any kind of posting within the group (though it is open to lurkers) efficiently reduces trolling because the people that would troll would not want to be associated with a name like our group has.

    Concluding that, I think it would be optimal for your new group to use the same tactic, even though it means that the group is less open for people to voice their opinions.

    Meshuggah: "A combination of the powerful and the avant-garde, the band is as visceral and imposing an act as you’ll ever see and hear, guitarists Fredrik Thordendal, Mårten Hagström, and bassist Dick Lövgren hammering out lurching, monolithic riffs as they headbang in robotic unison, vocalist Jens Kidman barking out surreal verses like a twisted drill sergeant while gesticulating like a puppet on strings. - Adrien Begrand (PopMatters)
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