• I don't think John Zorn cares whether we call this jazz or not. In fact, he probably prefers wee didn't. FW 14 is, as you might suspect, the 14th in a series of music composed or edited for films--often films that are as independent and *ahem* quirky as Zorn is.

    The players are all steeped in jazz, but also in other music; the guitarist, Marc Ribot, led a group call the Prosthetic Cubans (one of many groups he led or leads) that played Cuban "party" music.

    So, FW14--I found it ethereal. Acoustic guitar, Kenny Wolleson's vibes, percussion by Cyro Baptista and some wordless vocals.

    You say you were disappointed. Why?

    I ask, because although I have probably 30 or 40 disks where John Zorn is the key individual, whether composing, playing, or conducting, I don't think I would or have often bought anything of his without checking reviews first to see what I'm getting in to.

    I have this one & I like it, but my favorite FW is Filmworks X-In the Mirror of Maya Deren. FW 10 is another that I wouuld hesitate to call jazz, but it is hauntingly beautiful, so who cares if it is jazz?

    beelzbubba
    jazzoetry is poetry
  • I really like Hiding and Seeking. Of the twelve film works I have by him, it's probably in the top three, definitely top five. As for what kind of jazz, if it is jazz, I see it a soundtrack above all else, and also see the album as a whole as a single composition, with different movements. I can hear jazz in the album, but I do not listen to it as any specific genre or anything like that.

    For the record, my favorite is No. 13, Invitation to a Suicide.

  • beelzbubba said:
    You say you were disappointed. Why?

    I ask, because although I have probably 30 or 40 disks where John Zorn is the key individual, whether composing, playing, or conducting, I don't think I would or have often bought anything of his without checking reviews first to see what I'm getting in to.
    First, (film) soundtracks often have this watch-the-movie-and-don't-mind-me kind of feeling for me. FW14 doesn't have it as much as others (take this for example). Second, I was expecting something a little different. Sure, I knew it wouldn't sound like the Naked City series I also like. Third, it falls short on the other two CD's I bought along with it (Eric Dolphy - Out to Lunch and Talking Heads - Remain in Light).
    I'm not saying FW14 is in any way bad, mind you. There was just a bit of variety that I missed. Maybe I'll change my opinion after hearing it another few times (that tends to happen).

    Anyway, thanks for the info!

    (\__/)
    (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny into your
    (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.

    ze bunny! :O
  • Makes perfect sense. The FW series would be a lot different than movie soundtracks. More atmospheric, less punctuation of dramatic moments.

    Yes, these and the Masada String Quartets and the Bar Kokhba groups are quite different than Naked City or Spy Vs. Spy. If you're looking for a "jazzier" side of Zorn, I'd recommend the Masada (non-string) recordings with Dave Douglas on trumpet, the brilliant Sonny Clark Memorial Quartet, and Electric Masada.

    No matter what your leanings toward Zorn music is, I'd also recommend "The Circle Maker" as one of the best of his Masada string quartet albums.

    beelzbubba
    jazzoetry is poetry
  • His latest release also deserves a listen. A bit like some of Bar Kokhba, minus Jewish elements.

    Alhambra Love Songs (2009)


  • time for a MAC list

  • VerveAreRising said:
    time for a MAC list


    Are you suggesting "Where to start with John Zorn?" or "25 Greatest John Zorn Albums"?

    beelzbubba
    jazzoetry is poetry
  • I'd say "where to start" or a list trying to cover most of his oevre in 25 albums would be more useful than a best of.

  • wrdlbrmpf said:
    I'd say "where to start" or a list trying to cover most of his oevre in 25 albums would be more useful than a best of.


    true dat.

    beelzbubba
    jazzoetry is poetry
  • I was not referring to Zorn.. I haven't heard a single Zorn album :( Nonetheless, I'm going to join the cheerleading squad.

  • Then it sounds like you could definitely use a Zorn list.

    I'd say a list of 25 albums should be sufficient, as long as we police ourselves and don't just list his soundtracks or Masada works. I don't think we'd do that anyway, but it's worth mentioning once.

  • 25 Zorn Albums for Rohit

    We shall commence to begin to start a list for our friend Rohit, who apparently has misspent his youth and not listened to a single John Zorn album. I'd like y'all to add a note after the selection(s) to give a capsule on why you think "x" belongs on this intro to Zorn list. I'll wade into the waters first...

    25 Zorn Albums for Rohit
    The Sonny Clark Memorial Quartet Voodoo 1985
    John Zorn Filmworks X - in the Mirror of Maya Deren 2001

    Count = 2

    The first is Zorn with his cool-bop best manners on, proving false the canard that avant-garde players can't play. Zorn and collaborators Horvitz, Drummond & Previte roll through 7 Sonny Clark tunes with aplomb. Clark was largely unknown to me before I picked up this album on Black Saint. That didn't hold for long. I have to say I play Zorn's version of Clark as much as I play Sonny himself.


    The second is one of the beautiful, lyrical, haunting Filmworks series, and one that I mentioned above. Here Zorn plays piano, with Jamie Saft on organ, Erik Friedlander on cello and Cyro Baptisto on percussion. AMG calls this the most accessible of the Filmworks series and I guess I won't argue. This is a stellar album.

    beelzbubba
    jazzoetry is poetry
  • With the Zorn list...are we talking about ones where he is the main player, composer, featuring, etc...in other words looking for some clarification on how much Zorn an album needs or should have to go on this list which I think shall be very interesting and polarizing because I've found Zorn to be someone who even fans of his has albums people dislike and often they are different ones from other fans

    "It never got weird enough for me."
    http://thedjjazzpants.blogspot.com/
  • I'd say stronger than "featuring," although I guess I'd have to see what you mean as a f'rinstance. So, Zorn as composer or main player. Groups he's led, like Painkiller, are surely eligible. So, like Connor suggested, we don't just list the Filmworks series, but if we pick something out of Filmworks or Masada, we say why it deserves to be there--in y/our own humble opinion. And you are correct sir--I am a huge Zorn fan, but there are disks I genuinely dislike, and I'm sure there are ones I love that drive other people crazy.

    So go ahead, folks, you know how it works here--I rarely if ever pull anything off the lists unless it's just crazy wrong. But I got 25 or more that I could justify on the list, so y'all better hurry.

    beelzbubba
    jazzoetry is poetry
  • Re: 25 Zorn Albums for Rohit

    25 Zorn Albums for Rohit
    The Sonny Clark Memorial Quartet - Voodoo 1985
    John Zorn - Filmworks X - in the Mirror of Maya Deren 2001
    John Zorn - Redbird 1995
    Pain Killer - Execution Ground 1994



    Count = 4

    You can't get wider extremes in one artist, I don't think. Redbird is a minimalist tribute to the painter Agnes Martin. This is Zorn as 20th century composer, he doesn't play here.

    Pain Killer, for most of its brief life, was Zorn plus Bill Laswell and Napalm Death drummer Mick Harris. Execution Ground was their best, imo, and often gets categorized as death metal, but I have to believe most death-metal heads would argue. It definitely has elements of thrash jazz, ala Brotzmann and Laswell's Last Exit.

    beelzbubba
    jazzoetry is poetry
  • 25 Zorn Albums for Rohit

    The Sonny Clark Memorial Quartet - Voodoo 1985
    John Zorn - Filmworks X - in the Mirror of Maya Deren 2001
    John Zorn - Redbird 1995
    John Zorn, George Lewis, Bill Frisell - News for Lulu 1988
    Pain Killer - Execution Ground 1994

  • 93rd Album of the Week

    Naftule's Dream - Search for the Golden Dreydl (1997)



    3 votes total.

    Fielded by trombipulation

    The Standings Cloud:

    ...............astro1_rohit (1) jenevive (3) Ferris_Bueller (1) doolittleschizo (8) fredvomjupiter (4) halfadozen (8) paess7 (1) myprettymouth (1) trombipulation (6) -tgt- (2) tgodd(4) mostly-metal (1) yellowcarpet (1) wrdlbrmpf (3)

    List of Winners
    The Winner's Tour

    stab me 'til i cum
  • matetoth said:
    25 Zorn Albums for Rohit

    The Sonny Clark Memorial Quartet - Voodoo 1985
    John Zorn - Filmworks X - in the Mirror of Maya Deren 2001
    John Zorn - Redbird 1995
    John Zorn, George Lewis, Bill Frisell - News for Lulu 1988
    Pain Killer - Execution Ground 1994


    News For Lulu
    Reviewby Scott Yanow
    © 2009 Macrovision Corporation. All Rights Reserved.

    Avant-garde altoist John Zorn teams up with trombonist George Lewis and guitarist Bill Frisell to form a unique trio. Without the benefit of piano, bass, or drums, they interpret the hard bop compositions of Kenny Dorham, Hank Mobley, Sonny Clark, and Freddie Redd, generally not even the better-known ones. The performances are quite concise (Dorham's "Windmill" is covered in 40 seconds), respectful to the melodies, and unpredictable. There are hints of the avant-garde here and there, but also plenty of swinging, bop-oriented solos and coherent ensembles. Very intriguing music that is highly recommended to a wide audience of jazz and general listeners.

    beelzbubba
    jazzoetry is poetry
  • Thanks. I should have done that...

    • cjcarne said...
    • User
    • 18 Jun 2009, 21:29
    25 Zorn Albums for Rohit

    The Sonny Clark Memorial Quartet - Voodoo 1985
    John Zorn - Filmworks X - in the Mirror of Maya Deren 2001
    John Zorn - The Big Gundown: John Zorn Plays the Music of Ennio Morricone 1985
    John Zorn - Redbird 1995
    John Zorn & Fred Frith - The Art of Memory 1994
    John Zorn, George Lewis, Bill Frisell - News for Lulu 1988
    Pain Killer - Execution Ground 1994

    count = 7



    John Zorn & Fred Frith - The Art of Memory




    Simply a great slab of improvisation from two masters of the art.

    AMG Review

    Based upon the ancient Roman methodology for remembering architectural sites and the meanings built into their structures, guitarist Fred Frith and saxophonist John Zorn pull out all the stops in creating a body of improvisation that does not rely on symbolic invitations or responses, but is instead a collaboration that builds an imposing musical structure from forgotten trends, hidden sonic languages, and metaphorical tonal construction. From the opening moments of "The Combiner," where Frith twines his guitar from the table into a rope with Zorn's microphonics and multivalent scalar invention, you can hear a sort of communication being authored just beyond your reach. That the dynamics of the collaboration match so perfectly, offering glimpses of both restraint and tension before obliterating them with humor and pure aggression, should be no surprise -- the pair sought to do this from the outset. In "The Ladder," Frith moves himself into a corner with funky soul chords and splattered arpeggios that Zorn picks up and transforms into a mutant vanguard swing. The tempo is dizzying as Frith rips open his chords for their found sonic elements and Zorn goes in to shore up the idea, flipping it over and turning it inside out as only a master improviser can do. By the time you reach "The Fountain and the Mirror," the players have switched roles many times, each playing support and leader, turning what were merely notions for collaborating along a certain path into audible bodies with their own pulses, minds, and blood. This is a revelatory album, and a near matchless collaboration.


    John Zorn - The Big Gundown



    Something completely different from the tough improvised music of the above - this is Zorn showing off his fun side. A veritable plethora of downtown musicians shine on these re-imaginings of Morricone's great scores. I got this when it came out and it was one of my earliest introductions to the 'avant-garde'; it remains a favourite.

    AMG Review

    On this intriguing concept album, altoist John Zorn (who also "sings" and plays harpsichord, game calls, piano, and musical saw) utilizes an odd assortment of open-minded avant-garde players (with a couple of ringers) on nine themes originally written for Italian films by Ennio Morricone, plus his own "Tre Nel 5000." These often-radical interpretations (which Morricone endorsed) keep the melodies in mind while getting very adventurous. Among the musicians heard on the colorful and very eccentric set (which utilizes different personnel and instrumentation on each track) are guitarists Bill Frisell and Vernon Reid, percussionist Bobby Previte, keyboardist Anthony Coleman, altoist Tim Berne, pianist Wayne Horvitz, organist Big John Patton, and even Toots Thielemans on harmonica and whistling among many others. There are certainly no dull moments on this often-riotous program.

    Chief Slacker & Bat Chain Puller At:
    Desk Supervisor: Free Improvisation Artist Expert: Derek Bailey, Pere Ubu
    And remember, you get a free dead cat in each bar of Dead Cat Soap

  • 25 Zorn Albums for Rohit

    John Zorn - The Big Gundown: John Zorn Plays the Music of Ennio Morricone 1985
    John Zorn - The Circle Maker - 1998
    John Zorn - Filmworks X - in the Mirror of Maya Deren 2001
    John Zorn - Redbird 1995
    John Zorn - Six Litanies for Heliogabalus 2007
    John Zorn & Fred Frith - The Art of Memory 1994
    John Zorn, George Lewis, Bill Frisell - News for Lulu 1988
    Pain Killer - Execution Ground 1994
    The Sonny Clark Memorial Quartet - Voodoo 1985

    count = 9



    John Zorn - The Circle Maker



    This is a two disk set of what might be called chamber jazz. Zorn composes but does not play. The musicians on disk 1 are the Masada String Trio: Cohen, Friedlander, Feldman. On disk 2 is the Bar Kokhba Sextet--the string trio plus Ribot, Baptiste, and drummer Joey Baron. The tunes are from the Masada Songbook. Cohen, Dave Douglas, Baron, and Zorn put out something like 20 Masada quartet disks (Beit / Two is my favorite); by the time of the albums Filmworks VIII and Bar Kokhba, Zorn was reimagining the Masada work performed by other voices. The Circle Maker is as near-perfect a recording as I can imagine.


    John Zorn - Six Litanies for Heliogabalus 2007



    Let's jump ahead to some newer Zorn, and some that he actually plays on. (I found myself picking some favorites but without the trademark alto.) This is sort of a third in a trilogy, the first two Moonchild and the second Astronome are the trio of Mike Patton, Trevor Dunn, and Joey Baron. For Heliogabus, add Jamie Saft on organ & keyboards, Zorn on Alto, and Ikue Mori on electronics, and then toss a trio of female voices for an otherworldly choir. As the AMG reviewer Thom Jurek tells us, Zorn states in his liner notes to Astronome that his objective was to create "a methodology 'combining the hypnotic intensity of ritual (composition) the spontaneity of magic (improvisation) in a modern musical format (rock).'"

    beelzbubba
    jazzoetry is poetry
  • 25 Zorn Albums for Rohit

    Buck Jam Tonic - Buck Jam Tonic 2003
    John Zorn - The Big Gundown: John Zorn Plays the Music of Ennio Morricone 1985
    John Zorn - The Circle Maker - 1998
    John Zorn - Filmworks X - in the Mirror of Maya Deren 2001
    John Zorn - Redbird 1995
    John Zorn - Six Litanies for Heliogabalus 2007
    John Zorn & Bobby Previte - Euclid's Nightmare 1997
    John Zorn & Fred Frith - The Art of Memory 1994
    John Zorn, George Lewis, Bill Frisell - News for Lulu 1988
    Pain Killer - Execution Ground 1994
    The Sonny Clark Memorial Quartet - Voodoo 1985

    count = 9





    Review

    This 1997 duet recording between drumming ace Bobby Previte and saxophonist John Zorn is indicative -- pretty much -- of what Zorn's music was like at the time: There are plenty of hard bop linguistics mixed in with film noir themes and screeching, burning skronk. There are also short, lucid moments of melodic tranquility that prefigure much of Zorn's work from 1999 on. But mostly, this series of duets reveals something else, that two players from similar backgrounds, who have played in the same bands together and can understand each other on an almost symbiotic level, can still approach the same musical problem from two different sides and come up with the same answer. Nowhere is this clearer than on sections ten through 14 (there are 27 sections in all), which total about seven of the CD's 41 minutes. Here, Previte hears Zorn insistently and responds with short, crisp rim shots, rolling tom-toms, and scattershot cymbal runs that tend to stretch out the time, turn it loose from its constraints inside the work, and move forward into whatever frame Zorn chooses next. For his part, Zorn hears the thrumming of the cymbals and decides to speed up the piece in order to match Previte's double time. They both arrive in the pocket at the same time and kick the energy into an overdriven state of chaotic -- yet jubilant -- free improv, where there are no ties to gravity at all until Previte introduces a tom-tom and Zorn responds with a gorgeous angular legato. This is only one of dozens of surprises on Euclid's Nightmare. Zorn fans will be familiar with the level of histrionics employed here, while followers of Previte's more refined work may be put off by the constant atonality of the work.




    Buck Jam Tonic is a double album of improvised music by John Zorn, Bill Laswell & Tatsuya Nakamura . The album was released on the Japanese Wilddisc label in 2003 and is comprised of one disc mixed in Tokyo and another mixed in New York City. A vinyl edition was also released containing only the Tokyo mix.

  • 25 Zorn Albums for Rohit

    Buck Jam Tonic - Buck Jam Tonic 2003
    John Zorn - The Big Gundown: John Zorn Plays the Music of Ennio Morricone 1985
    John Zorn - The Circle Maker - 1998
    John Zorn - Filmworks X - in the Mirror of Maya Deren 2001
    John Zorn - New Traditions in East Asian Bar Bands 1995
    John Zorn - Redbird 1995
    John Zorn - Six Litanies for Heliogabalus 2007
    John Zorn & Bobby Previte - Euclid's Nightmare 1997
    John Zorn & Fred Frith - The Art of Memory 1994
    John Zorn, George Lewis, Bill Frisell - News for Lulu 1988
    Pain Killer - Execution Ground 1994
    The Sonny Clark Memorial Quartet - Voodoo 1985
    Wadada Leo Smith, Susie Ibarra, John Zorn - 50th Birthday Celebration Vol. 8

    count =13





    AMG reviewer Stacia Proefrock writes:"Themes of beauty, sexuality, and violence run throughout, the first and last pieces maintaining a narrative quality while "Hwang Chin-Ee" consists of short lyric pieces. The album as a whole is quite moving; it often contains a fragile beauty like a child on the verge of bursting into tears. This is one of John Zorn's greatest achievements to date." That about sums it up. Fred Frith, Bill Frisell, Anthony Coleman and Wayne Horvitz, Zorn, Joey Baron & Samm Bennett.


    As far as I'm concerned, get any/all of the 50th Birthday Celebration series, recorded at Tonic in NYC in September 2003. I think I have them all. OK, I'm not really keen on the Masada Guitars 50th Birthday, but maybe you will be. In any case, this one, with Wadada Smith and Susie Ibarra, flat out kills for fans of free improvisation. For the first set, we have a reprise of the Zorn/Previte alto & drum symbiosis. The second set adds Smith's trumpet to the mix. The finale Full Fathom Five is a raucous romp.

    beelzbubba
    jazzoetry is poetry
    Edited by beelzbubba on 19 Jun 2009, 19:52
  • thanks again

  • 25 Zorn Albums for Rohit

    Bar Kokhba Sextet - Lucifer: Book of Angels Vol. 10 (50th Birthday Series) 2008
    Buck Jam Tonic - Buck Jam Tonic 2003
    John Zorn - The Big Gundown: John Zorn Plays the Music of Ennio Morricone 1985
    John Zorn - The Circle Maker - 1998
    John Zorn - Filmworks X - in the Mirror of Maya Deren 2001
    John Zorn - New Traditions in East Asian Bar Bands 1995
    John Zorn - Redbird 1995
    John Zorn - Six Litanies for Heliogabalus 2007
    John Zorn & Bobby Previte - Euclid's Nightmare 1997
    John Zorn & Fred Frith - The Art of Memory 1994
    John Zorn, George Lewis, Bill Frisell - News for Lulu 1988
    Masada - Masada Vol. 2: Beit 1995
    Pain Killer - Execution Ground 1994
    The Sonny Clark Memorial Quartet - Voodoo 1985
    Wadada Leo Smith, Susie Ibarra, John Zorn - 50th Birthday Celebration Vol. 8

    count =15


    I love that Zorn treats a lot of his music/compositions as repertoire, to be replayed and reconfigured for different timbres/voices. Case in point:


    Masada, Beit was the first exposure I had to Zorn where I first started to "get it." I'm a huge Ornette fan, but Spy Vs. Spy just hit me wrong. I haven't revisited that one in years--maybe I'd think differently now. But I paid full price for it and it wasn't cheap. Not many places were stocking Zorn in the late 80s. But now it was 1995, and my town has a well known summer art fair, which also serves as an excuse for merchants to have "sidewalk sales." Tower was having a huge sell off of inventory, which meant in those days that a label was getting new distribution and they sold off the old copies from one mfr/distr in anticipation of stock from a new source. DIW--the publisher of my copy--was at that time Japan only, and these imports were astronomically priced, but on that day, DIW were like $5 or $7 apiece. I picked uup some David Murray, Lester Bowie, Butch Morris, and oh yeah, since I really liked Dave Douglas and Joey Baron, I figured I'd give Zorn another chance. This disk, Beit, was the impetus for me to begin to tell any/everyone I knew who was interested in excellent music that Zorn was the shit. No doubts about it. From the opening to the close, Beit grabbed me. This is a perfect quartet in the piano-less post-bop genre. There's obviously the Hebrew folk music influence, klezmer if you will, but filtered through Ornette and Berne and Hemphill. This quartet rocks, swings, blisters, and burns. From that moment, I've been hooked, and I've rarely been disappointed.



    Now, 13 years later, Masada, Beit has been translated through the Bar Kokhba Sextet. Remember them? The Masada String Trio plus Ribot, Baron, and Saft? The Book of Angels series is fueled by Zorn's intense interest in Jewish mysticism, and here they take the earlier Masada book two and bring to it a chamber jazz elegance that loses very little in the translation. It worries me a little that some of my favorite Zorn albums are cataloged by AMG as among his most "accessible"--this one is no exception, they say you could paly it for your grandmother & she'd get it. I dunno about that, but like Circle Maker, this is a gem.

    beelzbubba
    jazzoetry is poetry
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