The Jazz Desk:

Well, another suggestion might be 25 great jazz albums by leaders NOT from North America. So, there could be the great township jazz of The Blue Notes (Moholo, Dyani, Feza, Pukwana, McGregor), the sax of Sadao Watanabe, (I think Iyer/Mahanthappa get nixed becaause although they are Indian, they are downtown NYC cats now).

If we get more leaning one way or another or someone starts to run with it, fine; sometime tomorrow, if there's no decision, I'm just gonna start one of these, depending on which way the wind is blowing.

BTW, although I've only heard one or two cuts from Mekurya, I'd be inclined to go with that. I'm not so concerned with what instuments they're playing, just that we're not seeking out "The Central Congolese Swing Band Plays 100 Ellington Favorites". Right?

trombipulation said:
Dude, Ellington was nuckin' futs. The Pianoforte? Shit.

Now you know it ain't nothing against Ellington, or Miles, or Trane. I'd like to expand our understanding of jazz that happens outside the US of A. And since the jazz desk's members come from around this blue orb, I'm hoping for a New View.

beelzbubba said:
trombipulation said:
Dude, Ellington was nuckin' futs. The Pianoforte? Shit.

Now you know it ain't nothing against Ellington, or Miles, or Trane. I'd like to expand our understanding of jazz that happens outside the US of A. And since the jazz desk's members come from around this blue orb, I'm hoping for a New View.

Yeah, I was just being silly when I said that, and was also a little inebriated. I definitely see little reason in making lists that could just easily be called "actually sold a good amount of copies."

As for the list, I know Rufus Harley deserves to be on there, but have no albums by the man, just know him from a documentary on Harley and few songs here and there. If anyone knows any of his stuff, add one of his albums for me.

djjazzpants said:
question for clarification...would Violin count as a traditional or non traditional jazz instrument?

go for it...

Ahmed Abdul-Malik - Jazz Sahara (1958)
Art Blakey - The African Beat (1962) [with chief bey's percussion ensemble]
Clusone Trio - I Am an Indian (1994)
Colin Walcott - Cloud Dance (1975)
Don Cherry - Eternal Rhythm (1968)[whistle flute]
Dorothy Ashby - The Rubaiyat of Dorothy Ashby (1970)
Joe Harriott and John Mayer Double Quintet - Indo-Jazz Fusions 1 & 2 (1966)
Leroy Jenkins - Solo (1999)
Peter Zummo - Experimenting with Household Chemicals (1995)
Rahsaan Roland Kirk - Natural Black Inventions: Root Strata (1971)
Shakti with John McLaughlin - Shakti with John McLaughlin (1976)
Yusef Lateef - Eastern Sounds (1961)

Count= 12

djjazzpants said:
question for clarification...would Violin count as a traditional or non traditional jazz instrument?
Well that is very much on the border because violin has been used as solo instrument since early jazz, Eddie South, Joe Venuti, Stuff Smith, Stephane Grappelli. Also the Flute is on the fence.

-tgt- said:
Ahmed Abdul-Malik - Jazz Sahara (1958)
Art Blakey - The African Beat (1962) [with chief bey's percussion ensemble]
Clusone Trio - I Am an Indian (1994)
Colin Walcott - Cloud Dance (1975)
Don Cherry - Eternal Rhythm (1968)[whistle flute]
Dorothy Ashby - The Rubaiyat of Dorothy Ashby (1970)
Joe Harriott and John Mayer Double Quintet - Indo-Jazz Fusions 1 & 2 (1966)
Leroy Jenkins - Solo (1999)
Peter Zummo - Experimenting with Household Chemicals (1995)
Rahsaan Roland Kirk - Natural Black Inventions: Root Strata (1971)
Shakti with John McLaughlin - Shakti with John McLaughlin (1976)
Yusef Lateef - Eastern Sounds (1961)

Count= 12

djjazzpants said:
question for clarification...would Violin count as a traditional or non traditional jazz instrument?
Well that is very much on the border because violin has been used as solo instrument since early jazz, Eddie South, Joe Venuti, Stuff Smith, Stephane Grappelli. Also the Flute is on the fence.

Which flute is on the fence? Lateef? I'd be loathe to kick this one off of the list because I do think it is an excellent example of how western music reinterprets the music of the east. It is the sort of album I was hoping that we might get beyond, but only because it is such a staple, such a touchstone, so well-known that everyone should know about it already. The oboe and the rabat should qualify it for inclusion, as well as the eastern influence on the modal improvisations.

The Don Cherry Eternal Rhythm is exactly the sort of album that should be as well known as Eastern Sounds, but I don't think is.

You all may have different impressions of this album, but unless my memory is faulty (highly likely) this is the album that introduced me to Bernt Rosengren, Albert Mangelsdorff, and to the gamelan orchestra "concept" all at the same time. Here, it's not that the leader plays anything out of the ordinary for standard jazz compositions, it is the compositions themselves that incorporate folk musics from Lapps, Turks, Indonesians and Native Americans, and melds them with the language of European and American jazz. This is what "world" music should have been, not the watered-down, treacly, new-age crap foisted off on unsuspecting rubes. "ooooh! you like jazz, listen to this!" your friends exclaim as they put on a Buddha Bar CD or worse yet, Shadowfax or Spyro Gyra. Put the nail in me head, now, mates!!!!

Before I forget--well, done, all, and well done with the mini-lesson, cjcarne! Time for me to put a slot in or lose my spot...

Ahmed Abdul-Malik - Jazz Sahara (1958)
Art Blakey - The African Beat (1962) [with chief bey's percussion ensemble]
Clusone Trio - I Am an Indian (1994)
Colin Walcott - Cloud Dance (1975)
Derek Bailey & Min Xiao-Fen - Flying Dragons (2002) [pi'pa]
Don Cherry - Eternal Rhythm (1968)[whistle flute]
Dorothy Ashby - The Rubaiyat of Dorothy Ashby (1970)
Henry Kaiser / Charles K. Noyes / Sang-Won Park - Invite the Spirit 1983 (1983) [kayagum]
Joe Harriott and John Mayer Double Quintet - Indo-Jazz Fusions 1 & 2 (1966)
Leroy Jenkins - Solo (1999)
Maleem Mahmoud Ghania - Trance of Seven Colors (1994)
Peter Zummo - Experimenting with Household Chemicals (1995)
Rabih Abou-Khalil - Blue Camel (1992)
Rahsaan Roland Kirk - Natural Black Inventions: Root Strata (1971)
Shakti with John McLaughlin - Shakti with John McLaughlin (1976)
Yusef Lateef - Eastern Sounds (1961)


count = 16

I wrote about Maleem Mahmoud Ghania upthread a little. Ghania is a Gnawa master musician who invited Bill Laswell to record the local sounds. If I recall correctly, there were European jazz festivals around the same time--or possibly even Moroccan ones, so Pharoah Sanders & Laswell were already there. Fans of Sonny Sharrock's Ask The Ages will recognize the elegy to Sharrock (Peace in Essaouira) as "Who Does She Hope to Be" from AtA.

To call Rabih Abou-Khalil the best oud in jazz is to damn him with faint praise in a niche market. His talent extends well beyond the oud, and Blue Camel is just a flat out delight. I've probably got four or so Abou-Khalil disks, and most that I've heard have an American bassist/cellist (in this case Steve Swallow), but I bought them on hearing the amazing fretwork from Abou-Khalil.

I've got a couple of others I just thought of that I want to add, so I'll stop here, and hope that I get a chance to add them in my turn.

-tgt- said:
Eternal Rhythm is fantastic, so dense and full of these almost metaphysical colors. Its my favorite Cherry album, and that says ALOT. Also probably my favorite Sonny Sharrock performance on any record.

I think I still nod to Ask the Ages as my favorite Sharrock.

Cherry is one of my go-to artists whenever I am in control of the music. I'm not a completist only because time and money won't let me. Eternel Rhythm is right up there in my top 5--I don't think I can narrow it any more than that.

astro1_rohit said:
Do you think Shakti/McLaughlin & other african jazz musicians really play jazz? I can imagine Shakti as a non-jazz group. Same is true for Dorothy Ashby's persian album.. they can be considered fusion/world albums. I am asking the age old question, I guess.

If the question is something like--is Gnawa traditional music jazz?--then I think the answer is no; but do I think that with Sanders & Lasell, the Ghania can be filed under jazz? Yeah, and the same with Shepp or Coleman playing with the pipes of Joujouka.

The blues musician Otis Taylor is a musicologist and historian who's traced the banjo and musical forms of blues--and I think by extension jazz (I haven't read his opinions other than briefly)--back to Africa, so it's a chicken & egg situation, or perhaps a circular reference.

For example: Adam Rudolph & Hamid Drake started a band with their then new friend Foday Musa Suso, who plays kora (a stringed instrument), which is considered a precursor to modern stringed insturments (banjos? guitars?). The band is Mandingo Griot Society. Is it "strictly" jazz? No, but the question is--who gets to say & what impact does that have? Much of the album is strongly influenced by percussive jazz. (Don Cherry puts in a guest appearance. Drake and Cherry had also worked on Jim Pepper's Comin' and Goin' around the same time.)

When a lot of these records were sold in record stores, where they were categorized may have had an influence. Since there was no instrumental pop section, many artists who played primarily instrumental music that would be a stretch to call jazz were filed there.

Now, with search engines, RYM, AMG, online merchants, there are so many other ways to determine what someone might want to listen to, the genre distinction has less import for some, while purists may insist on more. Another example: Stanley Crouch and Wynton Marsalis have said on occasion that much of the Art Ensemble catalog is "not-jazz." I think that Roscoe Mitchell might agree on one level, because they were reaching for more than staying within a prescribed idiom. But to say that it is divorced from or excluded from the jazz idiom is plainly wrong.

We, collectively, are a big tent here. If Dorothy Ashby sounds like jazz, ok, it's jazz for our purposes. I've always considered her to be within the idiom, but a fairly lightweight, "easy listening," sort of artist.

Shakti/McLaughlin obviously not lightweight, and harder to categorize, and perhaps only "qualify" for jazz because of working associations with several of the members of Shakti, especially McLaughlin. But we come to the "record store" question again, especially for American and European audiences. Where else are you going to put them? By default, most of their listeners, I think, are also amenable to jazz and if they classify their collections that way (I am a purely alphabetical kinda guy--these sort of microgenre questions when filing away cds or lps drives me crazy), I imagine that they put Shakti under jazz.

We stalled at 16 on our way to 25. So I'm gonna put two more on in hopes that somebody has also listened to something lately that will add to the list...


Ahmed Abdul-Malik - Jazz Sahara (1958)
Art Blakey - The African Beat (1962) [with chief bey's percussion ensemble]
Clusone Trio - I Am an Indian (1994)
Colin Walcott - Cloud Dance (1975)
Derek Bailey & Min Xiao-Fen - Flying Dragons (2002) [pi'pa]
Don Cherry - Eternal Rhythm (1968)[whistle flute]
Dorothy Ashby - The Rubaiyat of Dorothy Ashby (1970)
Henry Kaiser / Charles K. Noyes / Sang-Won Park - Invite the Spirit 1983 (1983) [kayagum]
Joe Harriott and John Mayer Double Quintet - Indo-Jazz Fusions 1 & 2 (1966)
Leroy Jenkins - Solo (1999)
Maleem Mahmoud Ghania - Trance of Seven Colors (1994)
Peter Zummo - Experimenting with Household Chemicals (1995)
Philip Cohran and the Artistic Heritage Ensemble - The Singles (2007)
Rabih Abou-Khalil - Blue Camel (1992)
Rahsaan Roland Kirk - Natural Black Inventions: Root Strata (1971)
Shakti with John McLaughlin - Shakti with John McLaughlin (1976)
Tom Varner - The Mystery of Compassion (1992)
Yusef Lateef - Eastern Sounds (1961)


count = 18


Ok, so I think I'm cheating a little bit with both of these, but hey, I wasn't the one who started with the Western based music with the non-standard lead. I was originally looking farther afield, but I still think this is a good list for explorers.

Phil Cohran, as some of you may know, was both an original member of the Sun Ra Arkestra and of the AACM. He wound up leaving both because of philosophical differences. I've never met the man, but have a tremendous amount of respect for him.

His non-traditional instrument is the frankiphone, and if you look it up, you'll find all the references go back to him. It's a thumb-piano, known variously as an mbira or a kalimba. Cohran's frankiphone has always been amplified, which is perhaps the difference. Cohran's Artistic Heritage Ensemble released a couple of self-pressed albums and singles back in the 60s. Some diligent cats in Chicago have dug up and rereleased all of that stuff, and Phil, now in his 80s still makes occasional appearances on the Chicago festival scene.

The original A.H.E. had Pete Cosey on guitar (Rotary Connection, Miles Davis, Melvin Gibbs) and the horn section went on to become the Phenix Horns in those shimmering white suits behind Earth Wind & Fire.


Tom Varner is one of the few lead French Horns in jazz. The Soul Note release Mystery of Compassion is a hard-blowing post-bop masterpiece in my opinion. From the opening notes of "How Does Power Work?" you know that this band is there to play and it's time to strap in & listen. The quintet is Varner plus alto & tenor sax, but the group expands up to a tentet with trombone, bass trombone & Ellery Eskelin on an additional tenor. Bobby Previte is the producer. What makes this post-bop rather than just, say, hard bop?

Rarely do we find the melody stated as a head followed by chorus then solo, chorus, solo, head & out. Instead, the melody appears & reappears and the solos occur within the structure of the tune seamlessly. But yet the rhythm of the bass & drums sounds very much like, say, a mid 60s Blue Note.

JonMetadon said:
I'm looking for some funky jazz.
Like Medeski, Martin and Wood in their funkiest moments:
Big Time or Little Walter Rides Again
Some organ would be nice!
I also enjoy Herbie Hancock's Head Hunters.

Root Down by Jimmy Smith comes to mind immediately. Fantastic, groovy album. Some of Hancock's other early 70's albums, like Mwandishi and Sextant.

You should also check out Soulive. They seem up your alley. Also give Galactic a try, specifically Crazyhorse Mongoose. None of this is straight ahead jazz stuff, as it does not sound like that is what you are looking for, but all of it is really funky or groove-based music.

I did not check your charts, so sorry if you already know any of these artists.

JonMetadon said:
I'm looking for some funky jazz.
Like Medeski, Martin and Wood in their funkiest moments:
Big Time or Little Walter Rides Again
Some organ would be nice!
I also enjoy Herbie Hancock's Head Hunters.

What trombipulation said. And djjazzpants. Add to that, Critters Buggin, Niacin, Leon Parker,Calvin Keys, Chester Thompson (organ), Burnt Sugar the Arkestra Chamber, Phil Ranelin Weldon Irvine, Phil Upchurch, and when you're done with those, let us know & we'll toss another ten your way.

brianshazaaam said:

Bengt Berger - Bitter Funeral Beer (1981)

This session is lead by Swedish percussionist Bengt Berger on ko-gyil, a type of African xylophone, and features Don Cherry. It's a pretty great mix of traditional West African music and jazz improvisation.

Nice add, Brian. One of my favorites that I only found relatively recently, while looking for some Burnt Friedman. Got the names confused & wound up with Bitter Funeral Beer. Not disappointed at all.

25 Great Non-Trad Lead Instruments Jazz Albums

Ahmed Abdul-Malik - Jazz Sahara (1958)
Art Blakey - The African Beat (1962) [with chief bey's percussion ensemble]
Bengt Berger - Bitter Funeral Beer (1981)
Clusone Trio - I Am an Indian (1994)
Colin Walcott - Cloud Dance (1975)
Derek Bailey & Min Xiao-Fen - Flying Dragons (2002) [pi'pa]
Don Cherry - Eternal Rhythm (1968)[whistle flute]
Dorothy Ashby - The Rubaiyat of Dorothy Ashby (1970)
Henry Kaiser / Charles K. Noyes / Sang-Won Park - Invite the Spirit 1983 (1983) [kayagum]
Joe Harriott and John Mayer Double Quintet - Indo-Jazz Fusions 1 & 2 (1966)
Leroy Jenkins - Solo (1999)
Madlib - Shades of Blue (2003)
Maleem Mahmoud Ghania - Trance of Seven Colors (1994)
Peter Zummo - Experimenting with Household Chemicals (1995)
Philip Cohran and the Artistic Heritage Ensemble - The Singles (2007)
Rabih Abou-Khalil - Blue Camel (1992)
Rahsaan Roland Kirk - Natural Black Inventions: Root Strata (1971)
Shakti with John McLaughlin - Shakti with John McLaughlin (1976)
Tom Varner - The Mystery of Compassion (1992)
Yusef Lateef - Eastern Sounds (1961)


count = 20

ok first off where has everyone gone no posts on the jazz desk for over two weeks this is just wrong...ok now...
i know i am going to get some major backlash by this add, but I am a firm believer that the turntable is an instrument and is a nontraditional one for jazz, second shades of blue is certainly a jazz album with lots of hip hop flavor, but it is still jazz and it is one of the many directions jazz is going today, and this is a great reimagination of some classics as well as totally new songs by one or two loops of a song, feel free to disagree strongly on this one but lets at least get some discussion back at the jazz desk