The irony of this group

 
    • [Deleted user] said...
    • User
    • 11 Jan 2009, 18:35

    The irony of this group

    I remember way back when I first got invited to join and had an argument with CareALotsClouds because I was against this whole idea.

    I was by the way immediately treated as an elitist because of my opinion as well as my stands that music isn't completely about tastes (and also because I explained why Fnts and people like him are DIFFERENT from the trolls).

    Based on this groups definition of an elitist, the people here and in similar boards are elitists themselves or as I like to call it "elitists of taste" seeing that they feel the need to start a group on how "elitism stinks" and continue to post about every moron that comes along and "bash" someone else's music taste.

    Those people by the way are called TROLLS not elitists. Elitists as defined by Reference.com are "those whose views on a matter are to be taken the most seriously or carry the most weight; whose views and/or actions are most likely to be constructive to society as a whole; or whose extraordinary skills, abilities or wisdom render them especially fit to govern". In other words they actually have a brain and know what they are talking about and probably have facts to prove it.

    So somebody like Albert Einstein "whose views...are most likely to be constructive to society as a whole" is an elitist. So I actually don't really see what is so wrong with elitist. Of course, elitist can also means those who consider themselves to be a part of the elite or privileged in some way and may also believe that they should be treated as such. However, none of the idiots would fit in that "elite" status as they simple stupid Internet trolls.

    These trolls are random idiots (who are often 14 year old or at least they act as such) that listen to some apparently obscured music (even though most of them probably don't because any music even on last.fm with over hundred thousand scrobbles should be considered popular), who feel the need to bash other peoples music because they are unsure about their own tastes. They are like those religious preachers who smash you about being an atheist or because you are of another religion or even an anti-religion simply because they are (as I believe) unsure and AFRAID of what would happen when they die and have to make everyone else think the way they do in order to convince themselves of whatever it is that they believe in. It's almost like having an OCD, where people often triple-check something or repeat things over and over except these morons CHOOSE to do so. These people I think really need help and posting them on boards like these really doesn't have them.

    The other thing that I have mentioned is that this board is essentially doing the same thing thus it was why I got annoyed in the first place midway through my argument with CareALotsClouds and just ignored this and other similar forum.

    This however got to STOP!

    It bad enough every time I go to the artists page and there's an argument raging on around how this music is tr00 or the best and the other side "fighting back" about how music is about personal taste. Worst still is all the offensive insult that are thrown around often in unintellectual ways and the other side ranting on and on and on about how they are some sort of elitist or troll often also with some sort of insult in return. (And yes, I'm ranting on and on about it now).

    The worst part is that people tag and stereotype as I have seen all over the place simply because a small group is ruining it for the majority. Then some of those who get tagged and stereotyped, I have found, often react by siding with one or the other and acting in the same way as either one of the sides (troll or taste elitists).

    I don't mind music debates really. In fact, I like all types of debates but trolling or ranting on about it really is a completely different thing and it doesn't solve the problem, instead, it often makes it worst.

    So to solve this problem, I really think the first step is to distinguish whether they are an elitist or a troll. If they are a "troll", they will not stop their insults and trash talk, so just walk about like you do to those *cough* bullies *cough* in primary school because they are mostly weak little bunnies probably 13/14 of age (mentally at least) trying to look tough to get attention and really need to grow up.
    On the other hand, if they are an "elitist", we need to ask them WHY they believe in such an opinion. Afterall, your board and the likes claim that everyone is entitled to their opinion yet you don't allow them to have theirs and I have NEVER seen anyone TRY or ask to understand it. (And I have plenty of experience to back that up: I for one never throw personal insults but have received plenty and only talk about music intellectually without suggesting why one band is tr00 or better then another. However, I have been many-a-times treated like a troll, insulted, trolled backed, simply because I disagree with the opinion that music isn't about taste, ironically half the time I was invited to join in the first place...which was what happened with the argument with Clouds here).

    So why did I post this all of a sudden?
    Well, I just had enough of this bull going around. It happens everywhere online and not just to music. A while back, I got really annoy from a whole lot of Harry Potter fans because they decided to smash a group on FaceBook that I was part of because of it somewhat anti-Harry Potter (We didn't like HP) nature. It was the end of HP and we were discussing its future but apparently this was not allowed and we were the elitists who were unable to "accept" that everyone is entitled to their own opinion even though there were over ten pro-HP groups which did the same god-damn thing and none of our members from our one small group went on trolling on any of them. Then late last year when Twilight got 'popular' the same crap happened in reversed and people came around bashing me for advertising the movie and I even got called "gay fag" even though I suggested that I believe that Twilight wasn't that great of a series and the movie would probably suck. Similarly, DragonForce, released a new album and the whole "they are not tr00 metal" argument when on AGAIN.This is just three example that I remember from the back of my head but I'm sure we've all have had similar experience and probably been on both sides of this argument ourselves.

    This is why I believe this REALLY need to stop. Before, I go kamikaze and signal my alien friends to destroy Earth...er...did I just say that out loud. Anyway...ignore that.

    This is the same with quite a lot of smokers and drinkers I have ever bumped into who believe that they have the right to smoke or drink (in a public place) and I have no right to fresh air or soberness nor am I allowed to criticising them even though they are wrong for smoking and getting drunk in the first place. Lucky, this is starting to change...at least here in Australia and I hope this music issue can also dealt with.

    So why did I choice this board to post it on?
    Two reasons really.
    a) Its the only one that I have joined and hadn't removed....yet.
    b) I think the people here are at least intellectual enough to discuss the issue and really find a solution.

    So people I gone on long enough, I think you all get my point. Any suggesting on how this can be solved? I was (and had been ages back) thinking of starting a whole group around it...but I'm lazy and posting it on established groups would probably be a better idea as it will get more attention...but if you disagree...

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    Edited by hjbardenhagen on 11 Feb 2011, 23:20
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    Edited by hjbardenhagen on 11 Feb 2011, 23:20
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    Edited by hjbardenhagen on 11 Feb 2011, 23:20
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    Edited by hjbardenhagen on 11 Feb 2011, 23:20
    • [Deleted user] said...
    • User
    • 14 Jan 2009, 18:35
    no if that would be the only legitimate definition of elitist than we all would be brainy as you said your self this group is for elitist against other elitists, and i believe that it alright to be an rejected elitist by other elitists, but it's wrong to bash never the less!

    As I said, those who bash are NOT elitists, they are trolls. Elitist do not bash, they debate intellectually about a topic and back it up with logic/proof. Trolls on the other hand use insults and bad attitudes to put force their view often without any logic/proof.

    as my comment in of culm 5, yes those with brains might be assholes to, you doesn't necessarily have an all-round brain just because your logically smart, often social intelligence is lacking.

    I'm not saying that intellectual people don't necessarily have something wrong with them. We are all human afterall.
    However, if you were socially intelligent but was logically an idiot, you would thus counter your own sociability.
    EG: You for example don't seem to understand grammar very well (no offense intended) and so your English is considered very poor; no matter how socially intelligent you are because you are can't write properly, your social skill equates to very little. Now, if you spoke as poor as you wrote, you pretty much have no social skill whatsoever. Social intelligence is afterall created by intellectuals.
    On the other hand, an intellectual person may have really poor social skill but they can always learn them and some even create new ones. Our spoken and written language were in the past created by the intellectual person as a force of social intelligence.
    However, I understand your point and the problem with quite a lot of intellectual people is that they believe they are above the rules and social level of "normal" people and thus there is need to follow these rules or be a socially likable person. This is why they are seen as elitists.
    However, what most people don't realise is that they are just as bad as these elitists as often they would ignore or neglect the advice of these intellectual simply because they have little social skills. Otherwise, the opposite also occurs where people would follow the advice and rules set by the intellectuals mindlessly without considering themselves whether they are right or wrong. This is why society can have many bad traditions as well as new "liberal" ideas such as abortions that are just as bad.

    haha i can understand all trolls frustration, in the age... between 14 and 25 perhaps, i think you start to realize that other people might be stupider.. or at least of less acceptable taste than you, and you might have it damn hard to understand why people doesn't understand why it's so wrong to listen to that commercial crap or what ever.

    yeah join the misanthropist force Haha why do you even bother getting irritated?


    Well, I'm not sure what you said there due to the bad grammar so I'll guess. lol. Really though, I've been frustrated for a LONG time. That why I've never really had many friends. Its just the way people do things that annoys me as it is often very selfish and self-centred, yet they don't seem to see it and dare to tell call me "anti-social" or "elitist" or "nerd" or [insertinsulthere]. Smokers is a prime example and I constantly use that as and example on why the concept of "taste" do not work. Yet, more annoying is the ignorance of the people and how they justify this ignorance by suggest that they or others have a right to smoke (or do anything for that matter) because its their choice, opinion or whatever. Then when it DOES affect them negatively, it somehow becomes a fact that it is bad yet they are hypocrites the other 99% of the time when it doesn't affect them.

    For me, I have no problem that music is about taste but it is not COMPLETELY about taste. I like many song that would be considered simple or bad and even within the metal bands that I listen to, I have a tendency to like the simpler or the not-so-good songs. However, the difference is, I don't CLAIM what I like (or listen to) is good out of personal opinion/taste nor do I use it as a comparison to judge others. (Yet, I also don't assume that complex music is always good and simple always bad.)
    Personal taste does not = good (or bad).
    Personal opinion does not = right (or wrong).
    To do that would be to completely ignore the existence of objectivity in music, art and life and that is stupid. Our senses as subjective as it may be is based a level of objectivity. If I saw a deer run from a tiger, I know that it is scared and frustrated. How it felt is a unique experience that I would never understand (even if I magically transformed into a deer and was chased exactly the same way by exactly the same tiger in exactly the same place and at exactly the same time) but I don't have to be the deer to know that it was a scary and frustrating experience and the deer cannot deny those emotions hadn't occur by saying that his personal opinion was that it was XYZ.

    Yet, that is what people do, to art, to music and to almost anything. That is why so many people take up the belief that they have a right to do and believe whatever they want because its all just opinion. That's like saying that nothing is a fact, but if that's true then that in itself is a fact which proves that facts do exist and destroy the stupid argument in the first place.

    I've even heard/read many times from people that our morals don't exist because it all just "personal opinion". That's really going too far. If something bad ever happen to the people that believe that crap then they should have no right to sue or complain or anything. Afterall, its just YOUR opinion that it was bad, I'm sure that the other person(s) believes what they're doing is good and they were just trying to "help" (which in some cases are true but generally its not).

    and what would be the reason to start another group?

    Well, I'm too lazy to start one even though I've been saying I would since I first joined last.fm but if I did, I think the main reason would be to teach people to understand what I just said and also to police or help police (along with last.fm admins) from trolls and bashers. I would also use it as a way to create a "people" version of music criticism/critics where people come together to debate, discuss and LEARN what good music is and learn to change their attitude towards music and not smash one another or throw some lame "its all just personal taste" argument about something they know nothing about.

  • Can't bring myself to read all that. But really. Does anyone /care?



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    Edited by hjbardenhagen on 11 Feb 2011, 23:20
    • GrantRS said...
    • User
    • 29 Jan 2009, 01:25
    It's not the first time this point or similar has been made. The issue was raised ages ago whether the 'anti-bashers' group was hypocritical.

    First thing I'd say is that I don't think that individuals banded together in the group have to have exactly the same definition word for word of what an elitist is or who elitism does smell. It has a generally understood meaning that people have found as a unifying group of best-fit.

    Personally, and I don't expect my words to tally up exactly with any definitions or group manifesos for exactly the previous reason, I'm happy for people to dislike music, but I detest it when people attack the music they dislike or more importantly, the people who like it in such a way that they belittle the musicians or fans. Arguments that imply the prosecution's point of view is quintessentially 'better' than the defendent's point of view are impolite, unkind, hostile and, at their worst, hate inspiring.

    I shouldn't need further elaboration, but if I have to go on: People have a freedom of choice in their music and a freedom of speech, but there's no reason why they can't be polite and civil when expressing a negative opinion. Music, essentially, is an art form and not a science, even though some music may be 'more scientific' than other music, it's still art so inherently no music is 'better' or 'worse' than any other music. Unless you have endless amounts of self-confidence, it hurts to be on the receiving end of a "Your music is total carp" type comment. That, to me, is an elitist comment. It's much kinder to say "I couldn't really get into that," "I can see what they're trying to do, but it's not for me," or "I prefer <insert artist or album here>."

    You'll probably say then that we're elitist because we consider ourselves above the elitists. For one thing, I'm more concerned about musical elitism than elitism elitism as it is a bit abstract and hard to grasp, plus the people getting hurt by elitism elitism (or anti-elitism elitism if that would be a more sensible name for it) are people who are dealing belittling insults to start with. Of course that doesn't make it right. Even for us to say that that makes it 'slightly better' would in definition be elitism. To single out and 'name and shame' musical elitists would then be elitism elitism, but personally I don't think I do that. On the rare occasion I come across them I tend to either ignore them or plead with them to change their ways. I don't tend to try and make them feel small. (Most of them though can't be made to feel small as they are simultaneouesly trolls who get a rise just from a response.) The group's very title than, and my membership of the group is, in my view, the only thing that could even be argued to be elitism elitism on my part, and as I stated before, the exact title is of no consequence to me, it is merely the (active) group of best fit to my own anti-musical elitism belief.

    Turned out longer than i expected. Does it make sense?

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    Edited by hjbardenhagen on 11 Feb 2011, 23:20
    • JdGun said...
    • User
    • 26 Jul 2009, 23:43
    I don't care if the group practices what they preach. I just joined to the group so it would look to other like I'm an open minded individual, thus making my balls feel bigger.

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