Seige on Homs continues, Russians to protect their own interests?

- FWBTS said...
- User
- 7 Feb 2012, 19:36
Seige on Homs continues, Russians to protect their own interests?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/07/syrian-homs-siege-genocidal-say-residents

Atrocious. Indiscriminate, relentless shelling... and are they even hitting any rebel fighters? probably not...

Although it's not particularly relevent to this story, I'm intrigued by the Russians' role in all of this. I think they're only defending Assad's regime because Syria is their last major power base in the Middle East. With Assad gone, the people will also dispense of the Russian influence, as it's clearly not wanted there. As the Russians have advocated the violence against the rebels, from my point of view (as an outsider) it's only a brilliant thing if Assad is overthrown and they're kicked out.

[quote][b][user]FWBTS[/user][/b] said: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/07/syrian-homs-siege-genocidal-say-residents Atrocious. Indiscriminate, relentless shelling... and are they even hitting any rebel fighters? probably not... Although it's not particularly relevent to this story, I'm intrigued by the Russians' role in all of this. I think they're only defending Assad's regime because Syria is their last major power base in the Middle East. With Assad gone, the people will also dispense of the Russian influence, as it's clearly not wanted there. As the Russians have advocated the violence against the rebels, from my point of view (as an outsider) it's only a brilliant thing if Assad is overthrown and they're kicked out.[/quote]

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- kkkoen said...
- User
- 7 Feb 2012, 19:59
Of course the Russians are trying to protect their own interests, just like everyone else. Please be aware that to the west it's about regime change, not protecting the people.

[quote][b][user]kkkoen[/user][/b] said: Of course the Russians are trying to protect their own interests, just like everyone else. Please be aware that to the west it's about regime change, not protecting the people.[/quote]

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- FWBTS said...
- User
- 7 Feb 2012, 20:26
I know, I was simply raising my interest in the issue. Sorry if the title of this thread was misguided.

[quote][b][user]FWBTS[/user][/b] said: I know, I was simply raising my interest in the issue. Sorry if the title of this thread was misguided. [/quote]

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- Issendorf said...
- User
- 8 Feb 2012, 01:18
Sadly, I don't think the Kremlin cares that they, along with the Chinese, are responsible for every murder that happens post-UN veto.

[quote][b][user]Issendorf[/user][/b] said: Sadly, I don't think the Kremlin cares that they, along with the Chinese, are responsible for every murder that happens post-UN veto.[/quote]

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- yellowcarpet said...
- User
- 8 Feb 2012, 14:47
kkkoen said:
Of course the Russians are trying to protect their own interests, just like everyone else. Please be aware that to the west it's about regime change, not protecting the people.
While I don't doubt that the West has cynical intentions, can the people really be protected without regime change? I don't think so.

[quote][b][user]yellowcarpet[/user][/b] said: [quote][b][user]kkkoen[/user][/b] said: Of course the Russians are trying to protect their own interests, just like everyone else. Please be aware that to the west it's about regime change, not protecting the people.[/quote] While I don't doubt that the West has cynical intentions, can the people really be protected without regime change? I don't think so.[/quote]

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- Issendorf said...
- User
- 9 Feb 2012, 15:56
China's defense of the UN veto:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/06/china-syria-veto-peoples-daily

[quote][b][user]Issendorf[/user][/b] said: China's defense of the UN veto: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/06/china-syria-veto-peoples-daily[/quote]

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- kkkoen said...
- User
- 9 Feb 2012, 16:14
Maybe they're doing it for the wrong reasons as well, but their argumentation is valid. Good job China.

[quote][b][user]kkkoen[/user][/b] said: Maybe they're doing it for the wrong reasons as well, but their argumentation is valid. Good job China.[/quote]

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- dankine said...
- User
- 9 Feb 2012, 16:15
Aye, you can't really fault their thinking.

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
"I don't want to believe, I want to know"

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[quote][b][user]dankine[/user][/b] said: Aye, you can't really fault their thinking.[/quote]

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- yellowcarpet said...
- User
- 9 Feb 2012, 18:36
The problem with China's argument is that whether we get involved or not there will be chaos in Syria, I can't honestly see a negotiated end to the conflict. And whether we get involved or not there will be huge massacres. But at least if resolution had been passed it might have just lead to some form of positive outcome, but I canj't see any positive future for Syria with the Assad's in charge.

[quote][b][user]yellowcarpet[/user][/b] said: The problem with China's argument is that whether we get involved or not there will be chaos in Syria, I can't honestly see a negotiated end to the conflict. And whether we get involved or not there will be huge massacres. But at least if resolution had been passed it might have just lead to some form of positive outcome, but I canj't see any positive future for Syria with the Assad's in charge.[/quote]

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- Issendorf said...
- User
- 9 Feb 2012, 19:02
yellowcarpet said:
The problem with China's argument is that whether we get involved or not there will be chaos in Syria, I can't honestly see a negotiated end to the conflict. And whether we get involved or not there will be huge massacres. But at least if resolution had been passed it might have just lead to some form of positive outcome, but I canj't see any positive future for Syria with the Assad's in charge.

Amen - for the sake of the Syrians, you have to get a new ruler.

[quote][b][user]Issendorf[/user][/b] said: [quote][b][user]yellowcarpet[/user][/b] said: The problem with China's argument is that whether we get involved or not there will be chaos in Syria, I can't honestly see a negotiated end to the conflict. And whether we get involved or not there will be huge massacres. But at least if resolution had been passed it might have just lead to some form of positive outcome, but I canj't see any positive future for Syria with the Assad's in charge.[/quote] Amen - for the sake of the Syrians, you have to get a new ruler.[/quote]

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- dankine said...
- User
- 9 Feb 2012, 19:12
Issendorf said:
Amen - for the sake of the Syrians, you have to get a new ruler.

"For the sake of x" has always been the motivation though. A motivation that brings a lot of well meaning people onto the side of the "regime changers". Whether they are doing it for good reasons or not.

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
"I don't want to believe, I want to know"

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[quote][b][user]dankine[/user][/b] said: [quote][b][user]Issendorf[/user][/b] said: Amen - for the sake of the Syrians, you have to get a new ruler.[/quote] "For the sake of x" has always been the motivation though. A motivation that brings a lot of well meaning people onto the side of the "regime changers". Whether they are doing it for good reasons or not.[/quote]

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- kkkoen said...
- User
- 9 Feb 2012, 21:26
Who are "the people"? You and I, as outsiders, have no way of knowing how popular Assad is. And if our governments think (or act as if) they know, they don't. Democracy is not a universal goal. And even if it is for the majority of Syrians, if outsiders establish a "democratic" government, it will have no legitimacy whatsoever. If there is to be a regime change, it should come from within.

[quote][b][user]kkkoen[/user][/b] said: Who are "the people"? You and I, as outsiders, have no way of knowing how popular Assad is. And if our governments think (or act as if) they know, they don't. Democracy is not a universal goal. And even if it is for the majority of Syrians, if outsiders establish a "democratic" government, it will have no legitimacy whatsoever. If there is to be a regime change, it should come from within.[/quote]

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- Issendorf said...
- User
- 9 Feb 2012, 22:05
The people are the citizens in Syria. As for his popularity, he slaughters anyone who tries to revolt against him. I don't care what type of government system they have, but I do care when citizens are killed for expressing their disaproval of their government. The US shouldn't try nation building - Iraq as a prime example of why we need to leave Arab nations alone (at least their politics). But we can't just sit back and view the slaughter from afar.

[quote][b][user]Issendorf[/user][/b] said: The people are the citizens in Syria. As for his popularity, he slaughters anyone who tries to revolt against him. I don't care what type of government system they have, but I do care when citizens are killed for expressing their disaproval of their government. The US shouldn't try nation building - Iraq as a prime example of why we need to leave Arab nations alone (at least their politics). But we can't just sit back and view the slaughter from afar.[/quote]

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- Issendorf said...
- User
- 9 Feb 2012, 22:08
400 dead in the last 6 days: http://www.france24.com/en/20120209-syria-human-rights-watch-activists-assad-protests-un-arab-league

Assad prepping for potential chemical war with his own people: http://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-east/assad-forces-mull-use-of-chemical-weapons-in-homs-opposition-says-1.411954

[quote][b][user]Issendorf[/user][/b] said: 400 dead in the last 6 days: http://www.france24.com/en/20120209-syria-human-rights-watch-activists-assad-protests-un-arab-league Assad prepping for potential chemical war with his own people: http://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-east/assad-forces-mull-use-of-chemical-weapons-in-homs-opposition-says-1.411954[/quote]

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- yellowcarpet said...
- User
- 9 Feb 2012, 23:46
kkkoen said:
Who are "the people"? You and I, as outsiders, have no way of knowing how popular Assad is. And if our governments think (or act as if) they know, they don't. Democracy is not a universal goal. And even if it is for the majority of Syrians, if outsiders establish a "democratic" government, it will have no legitimacy whatsoever. If there is to be a regime change, it should come from within.
So we shouldn't even help them? The Iranians are helping the Syrian government, why shouldn't we help the opposition?

[quote][b][user]yellowcarpet[/user][/b] said: [quote][b][user]kkkoen[/user][/b] said: Who are "the people"? You and I, as outsiders, have no way of knowing how popular Assad is. And if our governments think (or act as if) they know, they don't. Democracy is not a universal goal. And even if it is for the majority of Syrians, if outsiders establish a "democratic" government, it will have no legitimacy whatsoever. If there is to be a regime change, it should come from within.[/quote] So we shouldn't even help them? The Iranians are helping the Syrian government, why shouldn't we help the opposition?[/quote]

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- kkkoen said...
- User
- 10 Feb 2012, 01:09
Issendorf said:
The people are the citizens in Syria.
The point I tried to make is that Syria's citizens do not make up a homogenous group.

Issendorf said:
but I do care when citizens are killed for expressing their disaproval of their government. (...) we can't just sit back and view the slaughter from afar.
Your country can't afford to take out all governments that oppress dissent.

yellowcarpet said:
The Iranians are helping the Syrian government, why shouldn't we help the opposition?
China's position, from the Guardian link: "Currently the situation in Syria is extremely complex. Simplistically supporting one side and suppressing the other might seem a helpful way of turning things around, but in fact it would be sowing fresh seeds of disaster."

[quote][b][user]kkkoen[/user][/b] said: [quote][b][user]Issendorf[/user][/b] said: The people are the citizens in Syria. [/quote] The point I tried to make is that Syria's citizens do not make up a homogenous group. [quote][b][user]Issendorf[/user][/b] said: but I do care when citizens are killed for expressing their disaproval of their government. (...) we can't just sit back and view the slaughter from afar.[/quote] Your country can't afford to take out all governments that oppress dissent. [quote][b][user]yellowcarpet[/user][/b] said: The Iranians are helping the Syrian government, why shouldn't we help the opposition?[/quote] China's position, from the Guardian link: "Currently the situation in Syria is extremely complex. Simplistically supporting one side and suppressing the other might seem a helpful way of turning things around, but in fact it would be sowing fresh seeds of disaster."[/quote]

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- yellowcarpet said...
- User
- 10 Feb 2012, 01:31
kkkoen said:
yellowcarpet said:
The Iranians are helping the Syrian government, why shouldn't we help the opposition?
China's position, from the Guardian link: "Currently the situation in Syria is extremely complex. Simplistically supporting one side and suppressing the other might seem a helpful way of turning things around, but in fact it would be sowing fresh seeds of disaster."
The way I see it is that it is already a disaster, and it will continue to get worse, so our involvement would only change the sort of disaster, hopefully with a more favourable outcome.

[quote][b][user]yellowcarpet[/user][/b] said: [quote][b][user]kkkoen[/user][/b] said: [quote][b][user]yellowcarpet[/user][/b] said: The Iranians are helping the Syrian government, why shouldn't we help the opposition?[/quote] China's position, from the Guardian link: "Currently the situation in Syria is extremely complex. Simplistically supporting one side and suppressing the other might seem a helpful way of turning things around, but in fact it would be sowing fresh seeds of disaster."[/quote] The way I see it is that it is already a disaster, and it will continue to get worse, so our involvement would only change the sort of disaster, hopefully with a more favourable outcome.[/quote]

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- dankine said...
- User
- 10 Feb 2012, 14:52
Hopefully, probably not though.
As our last two wars are currently showing oh so well.

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
"I don't want to believe, I want to know"

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[quote][b][user]dankine[/user][/b] said: Hopefully, probably not though. As our last two wars are currently showing oh so well.[/quote]

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- kkkoen said...
- User
- 13 Feb 2012, 10:23
An interesting BBC article about Homs, "Syria's slide towards civil war":
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-16984219
The BBC's Paul Wood has spent harrowing days under fire in the Baba Amr area of Homs, which has been subjected to a relentless artillery barrage by government troops. He has seen evidence of vicious sectarian hatreds and killings by both government militias and the armed opposition.

[quote][b][user]kkkoen[/user][/b] said: An interesting BBC article about Homs, "Syria's slide towards civil war": [url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-16984219]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-16984219[/url] [quote]The BBC's Paul Wood has spent harrowing days under fire in the Baba Amr area of Homs, which has been subjected to a relentless artillery barrage by government troops. He has seen evidence of vicious sectarian hatreds and killings by both government militias and the armed opposition.[/quote][/quote]

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- RonJGold said...
- User
- 15 Feb 2012, 14:48
yellowcarpet said:
kkkoen said:
yellowcarpet said:
The Iranians are helping the Syrian government, why shouldn't we help the opposition?
China's position, from the Guardian link: "Currently the situation in Syria is extremely complex. Simplistically supporting one side and suppressing the other might seem a helpful way of turning things around, but in fact it would be sowing fresh seeds of disaster."
The way I see it is that it is already a disaster, and it will continue to get worse, so our involvement would only change the sort of disaster, hopefully with a more favourable outcome.
With the conflict with iran any involvement of United States in Syria may spark a war much more bigger than civil war.
The situation in syria is not that simple as nato's involvement in Libya uprising therefore only arming the rebels is the way to help Syria without causing any bigger wars than what we see today in Syria .

[quote][b][user]RonJGold[/user][/b] said: [quote][b][user]yellowcarpet[/user][/b] said: [quote][b][user]kkkoen[/user][/b] said: [quote][b][user]yellowcarpet[/user][/b] said: The Iranians are helping the Syrian government, why shouldn't we help the opposition?[/quote] China's position, from the Guardian link: "Currently the situation in Syria is extremely complex. Simplistically supporting one side and suppressing the other might seem a helpful way of turning things around, but in fact it would be sowing fresh seeds of disaster."[/quote] The way I see it is that it is already a disaster, and it will continue to get worse, so our involvement would only change the sort of disaster, hopefully with a more favourable outcome.[/quote] With the conflict with iran any involvement of United States in Syria may spark a war much more bigger than civil war. The situation in syria is not that simple as nato's involvement in Libya uprising therefore only arming the rebels is the way to help Syria without causing any bigger wars than what we see today in Syria . [/quote]
Edited by RonJGold on 15 Feb 2012, 20:28

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- yellowcarpet said...
- User
- 15 Feb 2012, 20:24
RonJGold said:
yellowcarpet said:
kkkoen said:
yellowcarpet said:
The Iranians are helping the Syrian government, why shouldn't we help the opposition?
China's position, from the Guardian link: "Currently the situation in Syria is extremely complex. Simplistically supporting one side and suppressing the other might seem a helpful way of turning things around, but in fact it would be sowing fresh seeds of disaster."
The way I see it is that it is already a disaster, and it will continue to get worse, so our involvement would only change the sort of disaster, hopefully with a more favourable outcome.
With the conflict with iran any involvement of United States in Syria may spark a war much more bigger than civil war.
The situation in syria is not that simple as nato's involvement in Libya uprising cause libya therefore only arming the rebels is the way to help syria
Tbh, despite my previous posts I am not sure whether we should get involved in Syria, I understand that it is far more complex than Libya, it is just that I don't believe in outright rejection of anything to help the rebels. Anyway the US is going to bomb Iran anyway this year (maybe), so more likely involvement in Syria will just be a part of an attempt to get rid of Khameini and Assad in one go.

[quote][b][user]yellowcarpet[/user][/b] said: [quote][b][user]RonJGold[/user][/b] said: [quote][b][user]yellowcarpet[/user][/b] said: [quote][b][user]kkkoen[/user][/b] said: [quote][b][user]yellowcarpet[/user][/b] said: The Iranians are helping the Syrian government, why shouldn't we help the opposition?[/quote] China's position, from the Guardian link: "Currently the situation in Syria is extremely complex. Simplistically supporting one side and suppressing the other might seem a helpful way of turning things around, but in fact it would be sowing fresh seeds of disaster."[/quote] The way I see it is that it is already a disaster, and it will continue to get worse, so our involvement would only change the sort of disaster, hopefully with a more favourable outcome.[/quote] With the conflict with iran any involvement of United States in Syria may spark a war much more bigger than civil war. The situation in syria is not that simple as nato's involvement in Libya uprising cause libya therefore only arming the rebels is the way to help syria[/quote] Tbh, despite my previous posts I am not sure whether we should get involved in Syria, I understand that it is far more complex than Libya, it is just that I don't believe in outright rejection of anything to help the rebels. Anyway the US is going to bomb Iran anyway this year (maybe), so more likely involvement in Syria will just be a part of an attempt to get rid of Khameini and Assad in one go.[/quote]

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- RonJGold said...
- User
- 15 Feb 2012, 22:09
tbh, despite my previous posts I am not sure whether we should get involved in Syria, I understand that it is far more complex than Libya, it is just that I don't believe in outright rejection of anything to help the rebels. Anyway the US is going to bomb Iran anyway this year (maybe), so more likely involvement in Syria will just be a part of an attempt to get rid of Khameini and Assad in one go.
On Iran conflict,i think the answer is quite simple and effective its called BDS Iran and its already effecting the economics in Iran.also with the newest attacks on Israelis in Georgia,India and Thailand its showed that Iran is a third world country and leading nations (Israel and United States) should ignore her and keep boycotting her therefore there is no reason to attack her if Iran was behind this attacks .
even though Iran is a third world country there is no need to go war against Iran cause US citizens cannot afford another war and still maintaining Guantanamo Bay detention camp therefore US should not be involve directly against Syria if it sparks another war bigger than the civil war that is in Syria .

Israel knows well how to backup militant groups with ammunition and weapons therefore the only way to help the situation is Syria is backing and training the rebels against Assad.

[quote][b][user]RonJGold[/user][/b] said: [quote]tbh, despite my previous posts I am not sure whether we should get involved in Syria, I understand that it is far more complex than Libya, it is just that I don't believe in outright rejection of anything to help the rebels. Anyway the US is going to bomb Iran anyway this year (maybe), so more likely involvement in Syria will just be a part of an attempt to get rid of Khameini and Assad in one go.[/quote] On Iran conflict,i think the answer is quite simple and effective its called BDS Iran and its already effecting the economics in Iran.also with the newest attacks on Israelis in Georgia,India and Thailand its showed that Iran is a third world country and leading nations (Israel and United States) should ignore her and keep boycotting her therefore there is no reason to attack her if Iran was behind this attacks . even though Iran is a third world country there is no need to go war against Iran cause US citizens cannot afford another war and still maintaining Guantanamo Bay detention camp therefore US should not be involve directly against Syria if it sparks another war bigger than the civil war that is in Syria . Israel knows well how to backup militant groups with ammunition and weapons therefore the only way to help the situation is Syria is backing and training the rebels against Assad. [/quote]

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- yellowcarpet said...
- User
- 16 Feb 2012, 18:31
RonJGold said:
Israel knows well how to backup militant groups with ammunition and weapons therefore the only way to help the situation is Syria is backing and training the rebels against Assad.

Israel backing Muslim Syrian rebels. Doesn't that sound a bit silly to you?

[quote][b][user]yellowcarpet[/user][/b] said: [quote][b][user]RonJGold[/user][/b] said: Israel knows well how to backup militant groups with ammunition and weapons therefore the only way to help the situation is Syria is backing and training the rebels against Assad. [/quote] Israel backing Muslim Syrian rebels. Doesn't that sound a bit silly to you?[/quote]

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- RonJGold said...
- User
- 16 Feb 2012, 21:40
yellowcarpet said:
RonJGold said:
Israel knows well how to backup militant groups with ammunition and weapons therefore the only way to help the situation is Syria is backing and training the rebels against Assad.

Israel backing Muslim Syrian rebels. Doesn't that sound a bit silly to you?
It's not the first time Israel done something silly like that .

[quote][b][user]RonJGold[/user][/b] said: [quote][b][user]yellowcarpet[/user][/b] said: [quote][b][user]RonJGold[/user][/b] said: Israel knows well how to backup militant groups with ammunition and weapons therefore the only way to help the situation is Syria is backing and training the rebels against Assad. [/quote] Israel backing Muslim Syrian rebels. Doesn't that sound a bit silly to you?[/quote] It's not the first time Israel done something silly like that .[/quote]

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