October 21st site update - forthcoming changes for subscribers

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- marinaaaaaaaa said...
- User
- 27 Oct 2010, 02:47
Wow, this is a big disappointment.

[quote][b][user]marinaaaaaaaa[/user][/b] said: Wow, this is a big disappointment. [/quote]

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- dolphinmoonwind said...
- Subscriber
- 27 Oct 2010, 02:55
Massively disappointed at these changes--like everybody else.

"The ability to tag, love tracks and add to playlists isn't going anywhere. We're very much hoping we can provide another way to listen to these personal radio stations eventually."

I hope that "eventually" does not mean months or years. You are eliminating the main reasons I currently play Last so often. Like everybody else, I have put a lot of time and effort into building my Loved tracks, tags, and playlists. I would gladly pay more for my subscription to keep these options, if the issue is being sure that artists are paid for their work, which I actually fully support. I do understand that issue. And I love Last because it carries a lot of obscure music and genres that other on-line stations (like Pandora) don't have--my tastes being quite eclectic. Count me in the group of people who would pay a reasonable amount more to keep these features. It seems lately the rule of thumb is, "If it ain't broke, fix it till it is."

[quote][b][user]dolphinmoonwind[/user][/b] said: "The ability to tag, love tracks and add to playlists isn't going anywhere. We're very much hoping we can provide another way to listen to these personal radio stations eventually." I hope that "eventually" does not mean months or years. You are eliminating the main reasons I currently play Last so often. Like everybody else, I have put a lot of time and effort into building my Loved tracks, tags, and playlists. I would gladly pay more for my subscription to keep these options, if the issue is being sure that artists are paid for their work, which I actually fully support. I do understand that issue. And I love Last because it carries a lot of obscure music and genres that other on-line stations (like Pandora) don't have--my tastes being quite eclectic. Count me in the group of people who would pay a reasonable amount more to keep these features. It seems lately the rule of thumb is, "If it ain't broke, fix it till it is." [/quote]

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- babybling10 said...
- User
- 27 Oct 2010, 05:27
Big Dissapointment to me!

I will miss those stations. I hope the future items that suscribers can do will be good though.

[quote][b][user]babybling10[/user][/b] said: I will miss those stations. I hope the future items that suscribers can do will be good though.[/quote]

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- fmera said...
- User
- 27 Oct 2010, 05:47
Re:Re: Re:Re: Global Tag Radio = Music Based-On What's Been Tagged

maz35 said:
RhYnoECfnW said:
IanAR said:
acreature said:
IanAR said:
(Artists are music brands, albums are music packages, neither are music per se.)
I wasn't trying to be weaselly here; as far as I know you'll never hear something on a global tag radio that hasn't been tagged with that tag. But I think we do weight the tags, so (for instance) you're more likely to hear something that's been tagged 100 times than once. We've got a department of data scientists who do very clever things with selection algorithms to make our tag radios enjoyable.
I was not trying to imply any weaselly-talk. What I'd like to be clear about is that - apart from the occasional adventure in lesser known yet streamable artists & related tags - I've got no interest, whatsoever, in listening to tracks based on artist tagging. For me, most artist tagging is spam. - Best, Ian

I don't know how I missed this, and haven't really read through to see if there was a response, but I wholeheartedly agree with it. I'd feel a lot more comfortable using the tag radios if they were solely based on track tags, not album or artist. I think I know the answer already, but any chance of this happening?

I agree with this as well, at the very least track tags should have a much higher priority in the algorithm then artist tags. Artists tags don't take into account that an artist can change their style from album to album or even track to track.thks to IanAR, RhYnoECfnW, and maz35. good observation.

yes, this will potentially filter out a ton of less-focused tagging from other users (i may be talking about this at length a bit later on). but maz's algorithm weighting idea would work better if users were able to retain their own album/artist tags at high priority as a sort of compromise.

in recent times, i have begun to tag albums and artists more than i do specific tracks (the latter might as well go into playlists). the reason is simple: it's efficient (if you don't use fancy tools like mass-taggers and such).

(but then, that's like asking for more control over what music one would get to listen to, isn't it? do you think cbs would approve?)

U.G.L.Y. - changing the face of music, one artist at a time.
there are some things pngs can't fix. for everything else, there's pngoptimizer.

[quote][b][user]fmera[/user][/b] said: [quote][b][user]maz35[/user][/b] said: [quote][b][user]RhYnoECfnW[/user][/b] said: [quote][b][user]IanAR[/user][/b] said: [quote][b][user]acreature[/user][/b] said: [quote][b][user]IanAR[/user][/b] said: (Artists are music brands, albums are music packages, neither are music per se.)[/quote] I wasn't trying to be weaselly here; as far as I know you'll never hear something on a global tag radio that hasn't been tagged with that tag. But I think we do weight the tags, so (for instance) you're more likely to hear something that's been tagged 100 times than once. We've got a department of data scientists who do very clever things with selection algorithms to make our tag radios enjoyable. [/quote] I was not trying to imply any weaselly-talk. What I'd like to be clear about is that - apart from the occasional adventure in [tag]lesser known yet streamable artists[/tag] & related tags - I've got no interest, whatsoever, in listening to tracks based on artist tagging. For me, most artist tagging is spam. - Best, Ian[/quote] I don't know how I missed this, and haven't really read through to see if there was a response, but I wholeheartedly agree with it. I'd feel a lot more comfortable using the tag radios if they were solely based on track tags, not album or artist. I think I know the answer already, but any chance of this happening?[/quote] I agree with this as well, at the very least track tags should have a much higher priority in the algorithm then artist tags. Artists tags don't take into account that an artist can change their style from album to album or even track to track.[/quote]thks to [user]IanAR[/user], [user]RhYnoECfnW[/user], and [user]maz35[/user]. good observation. yes, this will potentially filter out a ton of less-focused tagging from other users (i may be talking about this at length a bit later on). but maz's algorithm weighting idea would work better if users were able to retain their [i]own[/i] album/artist tags at high priority as a sort of compromise. in recent times, i have begun to tag albums and artists more than i do specific tracks (the latter might as well go into playlists). the reason is simple: it's efficient (if you don't use fancy tools like mass-taggers and such). (but then, that's like asking for [i]more[/i] control over what music one would get to listen to, isn't it? do you think cbs would approve?) [/quote]

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- iTranscendence said...
- User
- 27 Oct 2010, 08:14
Re:Re: Re:Re:Re: discontinuing subscriber-only radio stations

percy74 said:
CrybKeeper said:

Sure, Scrobbling was awesome and popular back in 2002, but I am fairly certain, it won't be enough in 2011... while dozens of other sites offer them and also offer similar music stats gathering - we won't even need Lastfm...

To summerize: Lastfm is rendered useless, if they stick with their core offerings from way back, because all the other music sites have caught up to that already.

Sorry, Cryb, but I have to disagree with you there. I have yet to find a site that even remotely does what Last does with data. For starters, how many sites out there keep a record of every track you've played, i.e. what you played on your iPod that day, and from your hard drive, and from their web radio, and from another website? Then how many of them aggregate that data for you in so many different ways? Finally, how many of them provide an API for you to access that data? And how many of them do all of those things? To my knowledge there isn't a site out there that does two of those things, much less all three of them.

This is where Last's niche is now and always has been. Even if they get rid of streamable content altogether, Last.fm still provides a service that no other site has come close to matching. A lot of people use the last.fm radios. I am one of them. But logout of Last for a few minutes and look at the front page. At any given time, about 80-90% of the scrobbles coming into Last.fm are from the files on user's computers - iTunes, Winamp, Foobar, etc. I promise you that scrobbling is just as relevant today as it was in 2002.

iTranscendence said:
CrybKeeper said:
iTranscendence said:
acreature said:
And no, I can't tell you that the change is making Last.fm better. Sadly, it is a necessary change. "Why?" is your next question. "Business reasons," is the next answer, which sounds vague but I can't give more details, sadly

This entire move actually comes as no shock to me, aside from the fact I have seen moderators and staff members time and again use tag radio and loved track radio as major selling points for even getting, or keeping a subscription. So to hang you guys out to dry like this on it is really fucked up on the part of CBS/Viacom. But really, how much do they care about you peons in an acquired asset that is their bottom earner.

The reason that this was done was clear, and simple CBS/Viacom has other assets that offer services that are in direct conflict with what last.fm offers. It is the primary reason they purchased this site, to starve off the the conflicting services through attrition of all that were in competition. Which inevitably only leaves one service that Last.fm has that is unique to the site.

The ability to index everything you are listening to, build a database of the artists, albums, songs and labels. To identify where they are musically in relation to their neighbors and help provide the user with new artists who are in the same neighborhood.

Now, this is what I use this site for. I hardly ever listen to any music on this site, save the few artists I have found here specifically and this was the place they had their music streaming. But, you guys.. As I've tried to raise the awareness and importance of to you as the staff, is that your statistical index information is shoddy at best compared to other sites like discogs. All this ties in with what I've been pestering you about for a year and a half.

That without statistical integrity, Last.fm has nothing.

You guessed it and you win the prize iTranscendence =) Lastfm is not even mentioned at CBS shareholders meetings. Lastfm is buried under obscure titles in CBS's SEC filings and execs are suddenly mute and deaf, if you try to get a direct and informative answer to this situation. Oh yes, you guessed it alright - Gannett did the same thing to literally 100's of competitive news media outlets, I watched them purchase their competition and absorb them, or kill them, over a 14 year period, so I can clearly visualize what you have just said, as being the perfect case scenario.

I think if they revamp their statistical indexing capabilities through automation with better algorithms and as you know my well discussed move more towards a discogs wiki model for editing site info, decentralize what is listened to on this site by integrating other sites ability to stream on last.fm, give the users the ability to easily in a micro-blog format share what they are listening to with their friends and have a small royalty free independent on demand streaming that is integrated with everything else and they could still pull this out of the fire.

All I know is that if CBS attempts to kill this site entirely including the scrobbling, shit may get Dogma on them.

[quote][b][user]iTranscendence[/user][/b] said: [quote][b][user]percy74[/user][/b] said: [quote][b][user]CrybKeeper[/user][/b] said: Sure, Scrobbling was awesome and popular back in 2002, but I am fairly certain, it won't be enough in 2011... while dozens of other sites offer them and also offer similar music stats gathering - we won't even need Lastfm... To summerize: Lastfm is rendered useless, if they stick with their core offerings from way back, because all the other music sites have caught up to that already. [/quote] Sorry, Cryb, but I have to disagree with you there. I have yet to find a site that even remotely does what Last does with data. For starters, how many sites out there keep a record of [i]every[/i] track you've played, i.e. what you played on your iPod that day, and from your hard drive, and from their web radio, and from another website? Then how many of them [i]aggregate[/i] that data for you in so many different ways? Finally, how many of them provide an API for you to [i]access[/i] that data? And how many of them do all of those things? To my knowledge there isn't a site out there that does two of those things, much less all three of them. This is where Last's niche is now and always has been. Even if they get rid of streamable content altogether, Last.fm still provides a service that no other site has come close to matching. A lot of people use the last.fm radios. I am one of them. But logout of Last for a few minutes and look at the front page. At any given time, about 80-90% of the scrobbles coming into Last.fm are from the files on user's computers - iTunes, Winamp, Foobar, etc. I promise you that scrobbling is just as relevant today as it was in 2002.[/quote] [quote][b][user]iTranscendence[/user][/b] said: [quote][b][user]CrybKeeper[/user][/b] said: [quote][b][user]iTranscendence[/user][/b] said: [quote][b][user]acreature[/user][/b] said: And no, I can't tell you that the change is making Last.fm better. Sadly, it is a necessary change. "Why?" is your next question. "Business reasons," is the next answer, which sounds vague but I can't give more details, sadly[/quote] This entire move actually comes as no shock to me, aside from the fact I have seen moderators and staff members time and again use tag radio and loved track radio as major selling points for even getting, or keeping a subscription. So to hang you guys out to dry like this on it is really fucked up on the part of CBS/Viacom. But really, how much do they care about you peons in an acquired asset that is their bottom earner. The reason that this was done was clear, and simple CBS/Viacom has other assets that offer services that are in direct conflict with what last.fm offers. It is the primary reason they purchased this site, to starve off the the conflicting services through attrition of all that were in competition. Which inevitably only leaves one service that Last.fm has that is unique to the site. The ability to index everything you are listening to, build a database of the artists, albums, songs and labels. To identify where they are musically in relation to their neighbors and help provide the user with new artists who are in the same neighborhood. Now, this is what I use this site for. I hardly ever listen to any music on this site, save the few artists I have found here specifically and this was the place they had their music streaming. But, you guys.. As I've tried to raise the awareness and importance of to you as the staff, is that your statistical index information is shoddy at best compared to other sites like discogs. All this ties in with what I've been pestering you about for a year and a half. That without statistical integrity, Last.fm has nothing. [/quote] You guessed it and you win the prize [user]iTranscendence[/user] =) Lastfm is not even mentioned at CBS shareholders meetings. Lastfm is buried under obscure titles in CBS's SEC filings and execs are suddenly mute and deaf, if you try to get a direct and informative answer to this situation. Oh yes, you guessed it alright - Gannett did the same thing to literally 100's of competitive news media outlets, I watched them purchase their competition and absorb them, or kill them, over a 14 year period, so I can clearly visualize what you have just said, as being the perfect case scenario.[/quote] I think if they revamp their statistical indexing capabilities through automation with better algorithms and as you know my well discussed move more towards a discogs wiki model for editing site info, decentralize what is listened to on this site by integrating other sites ability to stream on last.fm, give the users the ability to easily in a micro-blog format share what they are listening to with their friends and have a small royalty free independent on demand streaming that is integrated with everything else and they could still pull this out of the fire. All I know is that if CBS attempts to kill this site entirely including the scrobbling, shit may get Dogma on them.[/quote][/quote]

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- [Deleted user] said...
- User
- 27 Oct 2010, 08:34
Tagging of Artists vs. Tagging of Tracks

We had that problem with the scandinavian girls tag. It seems that each tagged object has equal weight in the resulting radio station. The tag was intended for artist tagging, but some people tagged individual tracks, resulting in those tracks being played as frequently as other tagged artists, thus dominating the radio.

[quote][b][user][/user][/b] said: We had that problem with the [tag]Scandinavian Girls[/tag] tag. It seems that each tagged object has equal weight in the resulting radio station. The tag was intended for artist tagging, but some people tagged individual tracks, resulting in those tracks being played as frequently as other tagged artists, thus dominating the radio.[/quote]

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- beast345 said...
- User
- 27 Oct 2010, 09:28
Major disappointment for me

I will miss the ability to make and share playlists, i used them to share music with subscriber friends.

[quote][b][user]beast345[/user][/b] said: I will miss the ability to make and share playlists, i used them to share music with subscriber friends.[/quote]

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- Tecfan said...
- Event Moderator
- 27 Oct 2010, 10:11
http://en.raumfeld.com/fileadmin/user_upload/Pressemitteilungen/2010-10-26_Last.fm-Raumfeld-Press-Release.pdf

If you're into experimental midicore/guitarprocore, you might enjoy my (free) tracks: Tecfan

[quote][b][user]Tecfan[/user][/b] said: http://en.raumfeld.com/fileadmin/user_upload/Pressemitteilungen/2010-10-26_Last.fm-Raumfeld-Press-Release.pdf[/quote]

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- Jdawg2k said...
- User
- 27 Oct 2010, 10:50
I've been a loyal Last.fm listener and paying customer for a while now but after logging in tonight and seeing the changes coming Nov 17th, it's the last straw.

- No longer able to listen to my fav channel
- No more playlist (which sucked anyway)
- Can't listen to it on my Android in Canada
- Can't listen to in my xbox live in Canada

Thanks for your time Last.fm, it was great but I'm looking elsewhere.

Jacques Desjardins
jmedia.ca

[quote][b][user]Jdawg2k[/user][/b] said: I've been a loyal Last.fm listener and paying customer for a while now but after logging in tonight and seeing the changes coming Nov 17th, it's the last straw. - No longer able to listen to my fav channel - No more playlist (which sucked anyway) - Can't listen to it on my Android in Canada - Can't listen to in my xbox live in Canada Thanks for your time Last.fm, it was great but I'm looking elsewhere.[/quote]

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- Ant718 said...
- Subscriber
- 27 Oct 2010, 11:56
Alternatives to Last.fm

I made a post about this (taken from here) and will be updating when I have new services as I say in the article.

http://www.last.fm/user/Ant718/journal/2010/10/26/407usy_alternatives_to_last.fm

[quote][b][user]Ant718[/user][/b] said: I made a post about this (taken from here) and will be updating when I have new services as I say in the article. [url] http://www.last.fm/user/Ant718/journal/2010/10/26/407usy_alternatives_to_last.fm[/url][/quote]

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- asplitsecond said...
- User
- 27 Oct 2010, 12:25
unsubscribe

Adding to the shocked voices: 50% or more of my listening time is to my playlists (put also a lot of time in composing them)
Loved tracks was also one of my favorites.

I can understand it's not so easy doing the licencing work ... but we're talking about the people who want to pay for this service. So we're actually paying for the licence right? How come it doesn't work?

Last.fm, stand up for your user base and get this fixed!

[quote][b][user]asplitsecond[/user][/b] said: Adding to the shocked voices: 50% or more of my listening time is to my playlists (put also a lot of time in composing them) Loved tracks was also one of my favorites. I can understand it's not so easy doing the licencing work ... but we're talking about the people who want to pay for this service. So we're actually paying for the licence right? How come it doesn't work? Last.fm, stand up for your user base and get this fixed![/quote]

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- dankine said...
- User
- 27 Oct 2010, 12:31
It doesn't work cos labels are outmoded beasts desperately trying to hold back the tide.

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
"I don't want to believe, I want to know"

Auto Corrections Group

[quote][b][user]dankine[/user][/b] said: It doesn't work cos labels are outmoded beasts desperately trying to hold back the tide.[/quote]

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- Amon_Re said...
- Subscriber
- 27 Oct 2010, 13:36
Oh well

Good thing i never really made any personal playlists & don't use tags, as long as the 'your neighbourhood' radio stays i'm staying too.

I am the horror that is death, the pain that is birth, the dispair that is live

[quote][b][user]Amon_Re[/user][/b] said: Good thing i never really made any personal playlists & don't use tags, as long as the 'your neighbourhood' radio stays i'm staying too.[/quote]

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- yannxou said...
- User
- 27 Oct 2010, 14:06
I do use personal tags and listen to them occasionally. I always thought also that by tagging I was helping to build a better database to recommend good music to me and to other people.
Now it seems that they don't want us this control anymore. To me it seems like they want us to listen to what they want again.

It makes some sense if you think about it. Mainstream radios or TV channels can make deals with big labels to broadcast their new-cool music. The more they play it the more the people buys it. It's been always like this. If you let people choose the music they want to listen, it may end up with users just listening to the music that is not longer played in concerts or that does not generate as much money as new music (ie: every-year-great-seller-summer-hits-full-of-tits).

It's my impression but otherwise, why there has not been added a higher price subscription that kept the private tag/playlist stations on?

Related to all this decisions taken by lastFM (or CBS) I've just read this news:
http://www.macrumors.com/2010/10/26/apple-in-early-stage-negotiations-to-acquire-spotify/

If that was to happen someday I'm sure that Spotify would be next to fall just like lastFM. Apple surely makes more money by selling songs at 0.99$ than would make with a streaming service. I wish I'm wrong but cannot stop thinking about it.. the golden years of the internet are ending...

Give us Last.fm NOT List.fm. Don't lose Last!!

[quote][b][user]yannxou[/user][/b] said: I do use personal tags and listen to them occasionally. I always thought also that by tagging I was helping to build a better database to recommend good music to me and to other people. Now it seems that they don't want us this control anymore. To me it seems like they want us to listen to what they want again. It makes some sense if you think about it. Mainstream radios or TV channels can make deals with big labels to broadcast their new-cool music. The more they play it the more the people buys it. It's been always like this. If you let people choose the music they want to listen, it may end up with users just listening to the music that is not longer played in concerts or that does not generate as much money as new music (ie: every-year-great-seller-summer-hits-full-of-tits). It's my impression but otherwise, why there has not been added a higher price subscription that kept the private tag/playlist stations on? Related to all this decisions taken by lastFM (or CBS) I've just read this news: http://www.macrumors.com/2010/10/26/apple-in-early-stage-negotiations-to-acquire-spotify/ If that was to happen someday I'm sure that Spotify would be next to fall just like lastFM. Apple surely makes more money by selling songs at 0.99$ than would make with a streaming service. I wish I'm wrong but cannot stop thinking about it.. the golden years of the internet are ending...[/quote]

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- Ant718 said...
- Subscriber
- 27 Oct 2010, 14:42
Related to all this decisions taken by lastFM (or CBS) I've just read this news: http://www.macrumors.com/2010/10/26/apple-in-early-stage-negotiations-to-acquire-spotify/ nofollow=yes

If only Apple would by last.fm from CBS we might be better off. (sarcastic)

[quote][b][user]Ant718[/user][/b] said: [quote]Related to all this decisions taken by lastFM (or CBS) I've just read this news: http://www.macrumors.com/2010/10/26/apple-in-early-stage-negotiations-to-acquire-spotify/[/quote] If only Apple would by last.fm from CBS we might be better off. (sarcastic)[/quote]
Edited by Ant718 on 27 Oct 2010, 15:22

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- dankine said...
- User
- 27 Oct 2010, 14:47
apple buy companies with the express intent of running them into the ground

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
"I don't want to believe, I want to know"

Auto Corrections Group

[quote][b][user]dankine[/user][/b] said: apple buy companies with the express intent of running them into the ground[/quote]

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- silverlage said...
- Subscriber
- 27 Oct 2010, 14:54
iTunes store is evil

[quote][b][user]silverlage[/user][/b] said: iTunes store is evil[/quote]

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- percy74 said...
- User
- 27 Oct 2010, 15:13
Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Global Tag Radio = Music Based-On What's Been Tagged

fmera said:
maz35 said:
RhYnoECfnW said:
IanAR said:
acreature said:
IanAR said:
(Artists are music brands, albums are music packages, neither are music per se.)
I wasn't trying to be weaselly here; as far as I know you'll never hear something on a global tag radio that hasn't been tagged with that tag. But I think we do weight the tags, so (for instance) you're more likely to hear something that's been tagged 100 times than once. We've got a department of data scientists who do very clever things with selection algorithms to make our tag radios enjoyable.
I was not trying to imply any weaselly-talk. What I'd like to be clear about is that - apart from the occasional adventure in lesser known yet streamable artists & related tags - I've got no interest, whatsoever, in listening to tracks based on artist tagging. For me, most artist tagging is spam. - Best, Ian

I don't know how I missed this, and haven't really read through to see if there was a response, but I wholeheartedly agree with it. I'd feel a lot more comfortable using the tag radios if they were solely based on track tags, not album or artist. I think I know the answer already, but any chance of this happening?

I agree with this as well, at the very least track tags should have a much higher priority in the algorithm then artist tags. Artists tags don't take into account that an artist can change their style from album to album or even track to track.thks to IanAR, RhYnoECfnW, and maz35. good observation.

yes, this will potentially filter out a ton of less-focused tagging from other users (i may be talking about this at length a bit later on). but maz's algorithm weighting idea would work better if users were able to retain their own album/artist tags at high priority as a sort of compromise.

in recent times, i have begun to tag albums and artists more than i do specific tracks (the latter might as well go into playlists). the reason is simple: it's efficient (if you don't use fancy tools like mass-taggers and such).

(but then, that's like asking for more control over what music one would get to listen to, isn't it? do you think cbs would approve?)

Users could just start tagging artists with "artist", albums with "album", and tracks with "track" and then using the combination tag station to filter out the unwanted tag levels. For example, playing a combo station of "electronic", "chillout", "track". Of course, these are subject to abuse like any global tag is, but it might work.

tburny's Combo.fm makes me think that the future of last.fm radios is in boolean control. The new radio API is already set up for it, though as far as I know, it is still in pre-alpha. In the future it may make sense to tag like mad, especially at the track level - to load tracks up with as many descriptors as possible and then being able to filter those descriptors to generate a decent playlist. So you can generate a playlist by telling the system, "give me everything tagged with '80s', 'post-punk' and 'track', but not 'goth', 'christmas' or 'holiday'."

One thing I'm not sure of is how many tags it takes to be considered in these combination stations. Is one tag enough or is there a threshold? If just one person tags a track "goth", will that not come up in my station above, or does it take several "goth" tags to eliminate it from my radio?

[quote][b][user]percy74[/user][/b] said: [quote][b][user]fmera[/user][/b] said: [quote][b][user]maz35[/user][/b] said: [quote][b][user]RhYnoECfnW[/user][/b] said: [quote][b][user]IanAR[/user][/b] said: [quote][b][user]acreature[/user][/b] said: [quote][b][user]IanAR[/user][/b] said: (Artists are music brands, albums are music packages, neither are music per se.)[/quote] I wasn't trying to be weaselly here; as far as I know you'll never hear something on a global tag radio that hasn't been tagged with that tag. But I think we do weight the tags, so (for instance) you're more likely to hear something that's been tagged 100 times than once. We've got a department of data scientists who do very clever things with selection algorithms to make our tag radios enjoyable. [/quote] I was not trying to imply any weaselly-talk. What I'd like to be clear about is that - apart from the occasional adventure in [tag]lesser known yet streamable artists[/tag] & related tags - I've got no interest, whatsoever, in listening to tracks based on artist tagging. For me, most artist tagging is spam. - Best, Ian[/quote] I don't know how I missed this, and haven't really read through to see if there was a response, but I wholeheartedly agree with it. I'd feel a lot more comfortable using the tag radios if they were solely based on track tags, not album or artist. I think I know the answer already, but any chance of this happening?[/quote] I agree with this as well, at the very least track tags should have a much higher priority in the algorithm then artist tags. Artists tags don't take into account that an artist can change their style from album to album or even track to track.[/quote]thks to [user]IanAR[/user], [user]RhYnoECfnW[/user], and [user]maz35[/user]. good observation. yes, this will potentially filter out a ton of less-focused tagging from other users (i may be talking about this at length a bit later on). but maz's algorithm weighting idea would work better if users were able to retain their [i]own[/i] album/artist tags at high priority as a sort of compromise. in recent times, i have begun to tag albums and artists more than i do specific tracks (the latter might as well go into playlists). the reason is simple: it's efficient (if you don't use fancy tools like mass-taggers and such). (but then, that's like asking for [i]more[/i] control over what music one would get to listen to, isn't it? do you think cbs would approve?) [/quote] Users could just start tagging artists with "artist", albums with "album", and tracks with "track" and then using the combination tag station to filter out the unwanted tag levels. For example, playing a combo station of "electronic", "chillout", "track". Of course, these are subject to abuse like any global tag is, but it might work. [user]tburny[/user]'s [url=http://www.last.fm/forum/21716/_/616299]Combo.fm[/url] makes me think that the future of last.fm radios is in boolean control. The new radio API is already set up for it, though as far as I know, it is still in pre-alpha. In the future it may make sense to tag like mad, especially at the track level - to load tracks up with as many descriptors as possible and then being able to filter those descriptors to generate a decent playlist. So you can generate a playlist by telling the system, "give me everything tagged with '80s', 'post-punk' and 'track', but not 'goth', 'christmas' or 'holiday'." One thing I'm not sure of is how many tags it takes to be considered in these combination stations. Is one tag enough or is there a threshold? If just one person tags a track "goth", will that not come up in my station above, or does it take several "goth" tags to eliminate it from my radio?[/quote]

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- toc-rox said...
- User
- 27 Oct 2010, 15:36
Re: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Global Tag Radio = Music Based-On What's Been Tagged

... So you can generate a playlist by telling the system, "give me everything tagged with '80s', 'post-punk' and 'track', but not 'goth', 'christmas' or 'holiday'." ... Sounds like a new programming language - not very handy.

[quote][b][user]toc-rox[/user][/b] said: [quote] ... So you can generate a playlist by telling the system, "give me everything tagged with '80s', 'post-punk' and 'track', but not 'goth', 'christmas' or 'holiday'." ...[/quote] Sounds like a new programming language - not very handy.[/quote]

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- dankine said...
- User
- 27 Oct 2010, 15:39
Re: Re: Re: Re:Re: Re:Re: Global Tag Radio = Music Based-On What's Been Tagged

toc-rox said:
... So you can generate a playlist by telling the system, "give me everything tagged with '80s', 'post-punk' and 'track', but not 'goth', 'christmas' or 'holiday'." ... Sounds like a new programming language - not very handy.very good control, useful. and as they say, it's boolean control. looks nothing like a programming language.

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
"I don't want to believe, I want to know"

Auto Corrections Group

[quote][b][user]dankine[/user][/b] said: [quote][b][user]toc-rox[/user][/b] said: [quote] ... So you can generate a playlist by telling the system, "give me everything tagged with '80s', 'post-punk' and 'track', but not 'goth', 'christmas' or 'holiday'." ...[/quote] Sounds like a new programming language - not very handy.[/quote]very good control, useful. and as they say, it's boolean control. looks nothing like a programming language.[/quote]

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- yannxou said...
- User
- 27 Oct 2010, 15:44
I already saw this request since I joined lastfm back in 2005.. Probably I would keep my subscription with such a feature.

Still, losing my tag-radios makes me so angry... I'd need to create a boolean radio with thousands of exclusions to get something 10% similar to what I've achieved with tags...

Give us Last.fm NOT List.fm. Don't lose Last!!

[quote][b][user]yannxou[/user][/b] said: I already saw this request since I joined lastfm back in 2005.. Probably I would keep my subscription with such a feature. Still, losing my tag-radios makes me so angry... I'd need to create a boolean radio with thousands of exclusions to get something 10% similar to what I've achieved with tags...[/quote]

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- tburny said...
- Forum Moderator
- 27 Oct 2010, 16:05
Problem is the radio station might be running out of content really soon if you restrict it too much :)
Afaik you can combine as many stations as you like, but do not abuse it in load means :)

Combo.fm: Combine your favourite radio stations! | My Blog | scala-lastfmapi
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My forum post reflects my personal opinion :)

[quote][b][user]tburny[/user][/b] said: Problem is the radio station might be running out of content really soon if you restrict it too much :) Afaik you can combine as many stations as you like, but [b]do not abuse it[/b] in load means :)[/quote]

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- hannezzz124 said...
- User
- 27 Oct 2010, 16:45
I understand that you want to improve your platform and make it easier to discover more music. But why people shall be unable to take their own way to do so as they appreciated (and paid for) it all the past years? Also I understand that the list of loved tracks doesn't go away and that you'll keep the tags and so on.

But with all due respect: did you guys thought about reasons why a lot of users differ between tag stations, loved tracks and playlists? When I want to listen to my loved tracks - I just want to listen to THEM. When I want to listen to certain tags I gave - I just want to listen to THEM. When I want to listen to my playlists - I just want to listen to THEM. Otherwise I could listen to "my library".

Not that I'm puristic or not open minded - but it all has it's sense to create the stations how I wanted to have and use them. Why is it necessary to mix these stations? Again with all due respect - but in context to difficulties of license fees it appears like a simple bundle of several stations for another kind of rotation - and in the end some tracks won't be played as much as before.

Also you've sold or better said promoted your subscriptions by offering some extras which you discontinue now. So... what makes a subscription attractive now? You're saying what subscribers get for the money they spend - but as far as I can see you've just removed the features and didn't add anything instead. Which means paying the same price for a less number of extras? Do we have to pay for that - beg your pardon - ridiculous "three in one feature" or did I miss anything? To get three stations in one? Sorry but I appreciated the possibility to handle my music taste in my way. And not in other ones. Also nobody can say what I do love - and what not.

With the years I got tired of all your changes "you think we'll love". I've accepted most of them sooner or later. If not I ignored them as there were a lot of other "nice 2 haves". Now you remove next things people kept on your platform. And the next bunch of subscribers is leaving. If you want to continue... please feel free. We'll see for how long it'll work. But the history tells us that our comments and opinions on that couldn't change any decision you made. Well, it's your platform.

And for the record: I do not mean disrespect. But I'm disappointed and want to comment. If I've misunderstood or missed some information please don't hesitate to let me know.

A former and quite disappointed subscriber (for a lot of years) who still misses the tag based flash player which could be embedded on external sites

early bird picks the worm...

[quote][b][user]hannezzz124[/user][/b] said: I understand that you want to improve your platform and make it easier to discover more music. But why people shall be unable to take their own way to do so as they appreciated (and paid for) it all the past years? Also I understand that the list of loved tracks doesn't go away and that you'll keep the tags and so on. But with all due respect: did you guys thought about reasons why a lot of users differ between tag stations, loved tracks and playlists? When I want to listen to my loved tracks - I just want to listen to THEM. When I want to listen to certain tags I gave - I just want to listen to THEM. When I want to listen to my playlists - I just want to listen to THEM. Otherwise I could listen to "my library". Not that I'm puristic or not open minded - but it all has it's sense to create the stations how I wanted to have and use them. Why is it necessary to mix these stations? Again with all due respect - but in context to difficulties of license fees it appears like a simple bundle of several stations for another kind of rotation - and in the end some tracks won't be played as much as before. Also you've sold or better said promoted your subscriptions by offering some extras which you discontinue now. So... what makes a subscription attractive now? You're saying what subscribers get for the money they spend - but as far as I can see you've just removed the features and didn't add anything instead. Which means paying the same price for a less number of extras? Do we have to pay for that - beg your pardon - ridiculous "three in one feature" or did I miss anything? To get three stations in one? Sorry but I appreciated the possibility to handle my music taste in my way. And not in other ones. Also nobody can say what I do love - and what not. With the years I got tired of all your changes "you think we'll love". I've accepted most of them sooner or later. If not I ignored them as there were a lot of other "nice 2 haves". Now you remove next things people kept on your platform. And the next bunch of subscribers is leaving. If you want to continue... please feel free. We'll see for how long it'll work. But the history tells us that our comments and opinions on that couldn't change any decision you made. Well, it's your platform. And for the record: I do not mean disrespect. But I'm disappointed and want to comment. If I've misunderstood or missed some information please don't hesitate to let me know. A former and quite disappointed subscriber (for a lot of years) who still misses the tag based flash player which could be embedded on external sites[/quote]

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- johnTMcNeill said...
- Subscriber
- 27 Oct 2010, 17:01
Once again....

"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." --Hunter S. Thompson

CBS has shown us the negative side.....

"Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even the dull and the ignorant, they too have their story". (Desiderata) ...unfortunately some of 'em are so stubborn that they STAY dull and ignorant ..:)

[quote][b][user]johnTMcNeill[/user][/b] said: "The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." --Hunter S. Thompson CBS has shown us the negative side.....[/quote]

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- johnTMcNeill said...
- Subscriber
- 27 Oct 2010, 17:02
Sure hope there is a light at the end of the tunnel

Looking forward to the real "improvements"...

"Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even the dull and the ignorant, they too have their story". (Desiderata) ...unfortunately some of 'em are so stubborn that they STAY dull and ignorant ..:)

[quote][b][user]johnTMcNeill[/user][/b] said: Looking forward to the real "improvements"...[/quote]

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