non available albums are streaming (and everyone's happy)

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- DriveThruElvis said...
- User
- 3 Mar 2009, 15:05
non available albums are streaming (and everyone's happy)

I've been streaming some tracks that actually do not appear to be available on last.fm, such as tracks from this album

The Program

or this album

Io non credevo che questa sera

while I really appreciate to be able to listen to these albums on the last.fm player, I just wonder why there is no "play" icon on these albums and you cannot get any preview for these on the website.

(I'm 100% sure I don't have any mp3s of those tracks on my computer or ipod, so it was actually streamed form the last.fm player!!!)

[quote][b][user]DriveThruElvis[/user][/b] said: I've been streaming some tracks that actually do not appear to be available on last.fm, such as tracks from this album [album artist=Marion]The Program[/album] or this album [album artist=La Crus]Io non credevo che questa sera[/album] while I really appreciate to be able to listen to these albums on the last.fm player, I just wonder why there is no "play" icon on these albums and you cannot get any preview for these on the website. (I'm 100% sure I don't have any mp3s of those tracks on my computer or ipod, so it was actually streamed form the last.fm player!!!)[/quote]

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- foreverautumn said...
- Staff
- 3 Mar 2009, 17:25
Some albums might be available for streaming and play on the radio, but not available as previews and hence not have any preview buttons, due to licensing.

[quote][b][user]foreverautumn[/user][/b] said: Some albums might be available for streaming and play on the radio, but not available as previews and hence not have any preview buttons, due to licensing.[/quote]

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- Babs_05 said...
- Forum Moderator
- 3 Mar 2009, 17:33
!! That makes NO sense whatsoever.

No wonder there's so much confusion over what tracks will play and what won't. I have seen so many new users frustrated and angry that tracks without play buttons won't play and our stock answer is well, if there's no play button, what do you expect. What on earth are we to say to them now?

And for that matter, how are we to know what we can and can't listen to?

Sod licensing, if there are tracks we can listen to, there ought to be play buttons. The redesign was all about consistency. Let's have some.

Central Point Albums 11 Music To Fall Asleep To Next Big Things - NBTs
Nov 11 | Reco of the Week - Jon Kennedy – The Goose Is Getting Fat

[quote][b][user]Babs_05[/user][/b] said: !! That makes NO sense whatsoever. No wonder there's so much confusion over what tracks will play and what won't. I have seen so many new users frustrated and angry that tracks without play buttons won't play and our stock answer is well, if there's no play button, what do you expect. What on earth are we to say to them now? And for that matter, how are we to know what we can and can't listen to? Sod licensing, if there are tracks we can listen to, there ought to be play buttons. The redesign was all about consistency. Let's have some.[/quote]

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- Russ said...
- Alumni
- 3 Mar 2009, 17:54
Babs_05 said:
!! That makes NO sense whatsoever.

Welcome to our world ;)

[quote][b][user]Russ[/user][/b] said: [quote][b][user]Babs_05[/user][/b] said: !! That makes NO sense whatsoever.[/quote] Welcome to our world ;)[/quote]

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- RhYnoECfnW said...
- User
- 3 Mar 2009, 17:56
Would just like to add that this is ridiculous. Are you seriously saying that for certain tracks, you're not 'allowed' to show us whether or not that track will play on the radio stations? If so, that's insane. As Babs pointed out, how on earth do you expect new users to understand the difference between full-length, full-length (3 plays), 30 second previews, no preview but will play on radio stations, and tracks with no stream whatsoever? Not to mention the differences between countries. This is all amazingly confusing, and I've been here for 7 years!

[quote][b][user]RhYnoECfnW[/user][/b] said: Would just like to add that this is ridiculous. Are you seriously saying that for certain tracks, you're not 'allowed' to show us whether or not that track will play on the radio stations? If so, that's insane. As Babs pointed out, how on earth do you expect new users to understand the difference between full-length, full-length (3 plays), 30 second previews, no preview but will play on radio stations, and tracks with no stream whatsoever? Not to mention the differences between countries. This is all amazingly confusing, and I've been here for 7 years![/quote]

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- Babs_05 said...
- Forum Moderator
- 3 Mar 2009, 18:02
Russ said:
Babs_05 said:
!! That makes NO sense whatsoever.

Welcome to our world ;) I feel for you, Russ, I really do. This must be extremely frustrating from your point of view too. Are you even allowed to tell us (like in a useful spreadsheet such as Spotify's) which apparently unavailable albums/tracks actually ARE streamable?

I have to say, it makes Last.fm look tatty, especially now with Spotify snapping at your heels. How can we support you and stand up for you? What can you tell us? Is it just a matter of housekeeping and those play buttons will be added at some point?

Central Point Albums 11 Music To Fall Asleep To Next Big Things - NBTs
Nov 11 | Reco of the Week - Jon Kennedy – The Goose Is Getting Fat

[quote][b][user]Babs_05[/user][/b] said: [quote][b][user]Russ[/user][/b] said: [quote][b][user]Babs_05[/user][/b] said: !! That makes NO sense whatsoever.[/quote] Welcome to our world ;)[/quote] I feel for you, Russ, I really do. This must be extremely frustrating from your point of view too. Are you even allowed to tell us (like in a useful spreadsheet [url=http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=psnjFY3R2itsTvXFfURbifw]such as Spotify's[/url]) which apparently unavailable albums/tracks actually ARE streamable? I have to say, it makes Last.fm look tatty, especially now with Spotify snapping at your heels. How can we support you and stand up for you? What can you tell us? Is it just a matter of housekeeping and those play buttons will be added at some point?[/quote]

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- Russ said...
- Alumni
- 3 Mar 2009, 18:04
RhYnoECfnW said:
Would just like to add that this is ridiculous. Are you seriously saying that for certain tracks, you're not 'allowed' to show us whether or not that track will play on the radio stations? If so, that's insane. As Babs pointed out, how on earth do you expect new users to understand the difference between full-length, full-length (3 plays), 30 second previews, no preview but will play on radio stations, and tracks with no stream whatsoever? Not to mention the differences between countries. This is all amazingly confusing, and I've been here for 7 years!

No, as far as I know there's no reason why we can't show you whether tracks are available on the radio, it's just a case of conveying this information in a meaningful and easy to understand way which, as you imply, is a bit of a minefield.

The play buttons next to the tracks represent whether you can preview them or stream them on demand (since that's what play buttons generally do). I think displaying play buttons next to tracks you can't stream immediately would be even weirder.

The music licensing situation is incredibly complex and it's a very difficult problem to try and communicate this to users.

[quote][b][user]Russ[/user][/b] said: [quote][b][user]RhYnoECfnW[/user][/b] said: Would just like to add that this is ridiculous. Are you seriously saying that for certain tracks, you're not 'allowed' to show us whether or not that track will play on the radio stations? If so, that's insane. As Babs pointed out, how on earth do you expect new users to understand the difference between full-length, full-length (3 plays), 30 second previews, no preview but will play on radio stations, and tracks with no stream whatsoever? Not to mention the differences between countries. This is all amazingly confusing, and I've been here for 7 years![/quote] No, as far as I know there's no reason why we can't show you whether tracks are available on the radio, it's just a case of conveying this information in a meaningful and easy to understand way which, as you imply, is a bit of a minefield. The play buttons next to the tracks represent whether you can preview them or stream them on demand (since that's what play buttons generally do). I think displaying play buttons next to tracks you can't stream immediately would be even weirder. The music licensing situation is incredibly complex and it's a very difficult problem to try and communicate this to users.[/quote]

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- Babs_05 said...
- Forum Moderator
- 3 Mar 2009, 18:19
Russ said:
No, as far as I know there's no reason why we can't show you whether tracks are available on the radio, it's just a case of conveying this information in a meaningful and easy to understand way which, as you imply, is a bit of a minefield.

The play buttons next to the tracks represent whether you can preview them or stream them on demand (since that's what play buttons generally do). I think displaying play buttons next to tracks you can't stream immediately would be even weirder.

The music licensing situation is incredibly complex and it's a very difficult problem to try and communicate this to users.
But they're lost amongst tracks we scrobble that aren't in your catalogue.

Central Point Albums 11 Music To Fall Asleep To Next Big Things - NBTs
Nov 11 | Reco of the Week - Jon Kennedy – The Goose Is Getting Fat

[quote][b][user]Babs_05[/user][/b] said: [quote][b][user]Russ[/user][/b] said: No, as far as I know there's no reason why we can't show you whether tracks are available on the radio, it's just a case of conveying this information in a meaningful and easy to understand way which, as you imply, is a bit of a minefield. The play buttons next to the tracks represent whether you can preview them or stream them on demand (since that's what play buttons generally do). [b]I think displaying play buttons next to tracks you can't stream immediately would be even weirder.[/b] The music licensing situation is incredibly complex and it's a very difficult problem to try and communicate this to users.[/quote] But they're lost amongst tracks we scrobble that aren't in your catalogue.[/quote]

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- maz35 said...
- Subscriber
- 3 Mar 2009, 18:30
Wow and all this time I thought unstreamable tracks came up due to a bug. The Labels really need to get their act together on uncomplicating their licensing systems, sadly they'll probably go in the opposite direction...

Sounds like an icon is needed that indicates on radio but has no preview available...say a little headphones icon instead of play button, anything will do.

The Tag Appreciation Society | The Last.fm Mass Tagger

[quote][b][user]maz35[/user][/b] said: Wow and all this time I thought unstreamable tracks came up due to a bug. The Labels really need to get their act together on uncomplicating their licensing systems, sadly they'll probably go in the opposite direction... Sounds like an icon is needed that indicates on radio but has no preview available...say a little headphones icon instead of play button, anything will do.[/quote]
Edited by maz35 on 3 Mar 2009, 18:32

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- DriveThruElvis said...
- User
- 3 Mar 2009, 18:32
Well I have some advice: pretty much like the "subscriber" vs "not subscriber" icon, that turns from blue to red or whatever it used to be, you should put a light grey play button that will tell us users that the album is available on last.fm, so that we can add it to our libraries - while the balck play button will stand for a preview button. As simple as that -
not clickable light grey play button - no preview but we have the track
clickable black play button - we have the album and here's your preview

please consider this option!

[quote][b][user]DriveThruElvis[/user][/b] said: Well I have some advice: pretty much like the "subscriber" vs "not subscriber" icon, that turns from blue to red or whatever it used to be, you should put a light grey play button that will tell us users that the album is available on last.fm, so that we can add it to our libraries - while the balck play button will stand for a preview button. As simple as that - not clickable light grey play button - no preview but we have the track clickable black play button - we have the album and here's your preview please consider this option![/quote]

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- adamzZz said...
- User
- 3 Mar 2009, 18:39
I really have no idea what's this thing all about. If you can stream tracks on the radio they should have 'play' buttons. What's the problem here? I would like to know even if I can stream a particular album in a radio station.I live in Poland and I don't have access to on-demand listening. I think that most of the users come from outside 'the big three',

The things you do with music are ridiculous.

[quote][b][user]adamzZz[/user][/b] said: I really have no idea what's this thing all about. If you can stream tracks on the radio they should have 'play' buttons. What's the problem here? I would like to know even if I can stream a particular album in a radio station.I live in Poland and I don't have access to on-demand listening. I think that most of the users come from outside 'the big three', The things you do with music are ridiculous.[/quote]

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- adamzZz said...
- User
- 3 Mar 2009, 19:22
Of course you mean that Last.fm renewed their contract with Warner & ADA? I see the unstreamable tracks playing in radio mostly from Warner.

[quote][b][user]adamzZz[/user][/b] said: Of course you mean that Last.fm renewed their contract with Warner & ADA? I see the unstreamable tracks playing in radio mostly from Warner.[/quote]

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- girl_from_oz said...
- User
- 3 Mar 2009, 20:59
Maybe by the tracks that will play in radio but not as previews you could have the world radio by it or something that way if someone can add that track to a tag station knowing it will play on them

http://www.last.fm/group/up+and+coming+music

[quote][b][user]girl_from_oz[/user][/b] said: Maybe by the tracks that will play in radio but not as previews you could have the world radio by it or something that way if someone can add that track to a tag station knowing it will play on them[/quote]

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- fmera said...
- User
- 4 Mar 2009, 05:43
Russ said:
The play buttons next to the tracks represent whether you can preview them or stream them on demand (since that's what play buttons generally do). I think displaying play buttons next to tracks you can't stream immediately would be even weirder.
that last line makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. show me one user who thinks like you do, and i can probably show you 10 if not more who think otherwise: that a play button separates tracks that stream on this site from those that don't.

just to add: surely it couldn't have escaped your attention that many, many times, users have advised other users on the supposed significance of the play button. at least one mod (iirc) also thinks likewise, in response to a forum post about tracks streaming in some countries but not others, citing the button as an indicator. why have you all not corrected this long-held misconception up until now?

***
pps: so am i to take it that the reverse of this weird logic is also true? that a track with a play button may be previewed and/or played on demand but may not actually be streamable at all on regular radio (or at least in some countries)? case in point: the entire tracklist of John Williams' Memoirs of a Geisha. till today, it streams, but not for me.

U.G.L.Y. - changing the face of music, one artist at a time.
there are some things pngs can't fix. for everything else, there's pngoptimizer.

[quote][b][user]fmera[/user][/b] said: [quote][b][user]Russ[/user][/b] said: The play buttons next to the tracks represent whether you can preview them or stream them on demand (since that's what play buttons generally do). [b]I think displaying play buttons next to tracks you can't stream immediately would be even weirder[/b].[/quote] that last line makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. show me one user who thinks like you do, and i can probably show you 10 if not more who think otherwise: that a play button separates tracks that stream on this site from those that don't. just to add: surely it couldn't have escaped your attention that many, [i]many[/i] times, users have advised other users on the supposed significance of the play button. at least one mod (iirc) also thinks likewise, in response to a forum post about tracks streaming in some countries but not others, citing the button as an indicator. why have you all not corrected this long-held misconception up until now? *** pps: so am i to take it that the reverse of this weird logic is also true? that a track with a play button may be previewed and/or played on demand but may not actually be streamable at all on regular radio (or at least in some countries)? case in point: the entire tracklist of [artist]john williams[/artist]' [i][album artist=john williams]memoirs of a geisha[/album][/i]. till today, it streams, [url=/user/fmera/library/music/John+Williams]but not for me[/url]. [/quote]

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- akrde said...
- Subscriber
- 4 Mar 2009, 07:27
@Russ

This issue is really really ridiculous and i hope you don't mean it serious when telling us that the music industry tells Last.fm where to add play buttons and where not!!!

Do you know how often i cold-shouldered artists, albums, tracks because i thought that there is not any streamable content available for it because of the missing play buttons?

And i thought that i know Last.fm very good now, how naive... :-(

We need play buttons for every streamable track, artist, album!!!

Add them with different icons, colours or whatsoever for the different purposes...but please just ADD THEM!!!

--akrde

Tomahawk Music Player
Last.fm Free Music Player
Playdar Music Content Resolver

[quote][b][user]akrde[/user][/b] said: This issue is really really ridiculous and i hope you don't mean it serious when telling us that the music industry tells Last.fm where to add play buttons and where not!!! Do you know how often i cold-shouldered artists, albums, tracks because i thought that there is not any streamable content available for it because of the missing play buttons? And i thought that i know Last.fm very good now, how naive... :-( We need play buttons for every streamable track, artist, album!!! Add them with different icons, colours or whatsoever for the different purposes...but please just ADD THEM!!! --akrde[/quote]

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- acreature said...
- Alumni
- 4 Mar 2009, 11:39
fmera said:
that last line makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. show me one user who thinks like you do, and i can probably show you 10 if not more who think otherwise: that a play button separates tracks that stream on this site from those that don't.

We already have users who sign up (and buy subscriptions) and then find that they can't play tracks because we don't have them streamable; this problem would increase if we had play buttons that don't actually play you a track. The principle of least surprise would say that if you see a play button on the site, clicking it should play you the track (or at least part of it). There should never be a case where clicking a play button next to a track refuses to play it to you.¹

The idea of displaying a different icon for only-playable-on-the-radio might work, but then there are problems with communicating that to users. For instance: what is the radio? Which radios does it appear on? How can I listen to it right now? Why can't I listen to it right now? How does that differ from the regular play buttons? Most of the answers to these questions lead to disappointment, or a vague feeling that we're cheating you.

I don't know if it's official policy or not, but you may be best to think of these tracks as a hidden surprise. If it's not got a play button we probably can't play it to you, and if it does come up on your radio it's a pleasant treat.

¹ I know there have been some problems with tracks appearing with play buttons that aren't streamable. As far as I know this is a bug.

[quote][b][user]acreature[/user][/b] said: [quote][b][user]fmera[/user][/b] said: that last line makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. show me one user who thinks like you do, and i can probably show you 10 if not more who think otherwise: that a play button separates tracks that stream on this site from those that don't.[/quote] We already have users who sign up (and buy subscriptions) and then find that they can't play tracks because we don't have them streamable; this problem would increase if we had play buttons that don't actually play you a track. [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_least_astonishment]The principle of least surprise[/url] would say that if you see a play button on the site, clicking it should play you the track (or at least part of it). There should never be a case where clicking a play button next to a track refuses to play it to you.¹ The idea of displaying a different icon for only-playable-on-the-radio might work, but then there are problems with communicating that to users. For instance: [i]what is the radio? Which radios does it appear on? How can I listen to it right now? Why can't I listen to it right now? How does that differ from the regular play buttons?[/i] Most of the answers to these questions lead to disappointment, or a vague feeling that we're cheating you. I don't know if it's official policy or not, but you may be best to think of these tracks as a hidden surprise. If it's not got a play button we probably can't play it to you, and if it does come up on your radio it's a pleasant treat. [size=7]¹ I know there have been some problems with tracks appearing with play buttons that aren't streamable. As far as I know this is a bug.[/size][/quote]

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- akrde said...
- Subscriber
- 4 Mar 2009, 11:53
acreature said:
The idea of displaying a different icon for only-playable-on-the-radio might work, but then there are problems with communicating that to users. For instance: what is the radio? Which radios does it appear on? How can I listen to it right now? Why can't I listen to it right now? How does that differ from the regular play buttons? Most of the answers to these questions lead to disappointment, or a vague feeling that we're cheating you.

So it seems you thought only about the new users, ok!

But should i tell you something:

I, as a long-time subscriber, AM REALLY DISAPPOINTED and not only have a vague feeling that YOU ARE CHEATING ME at the moment!!!

And i think that many other users are thinking just the same!

Now what?

acreature said:
I don't know if it's official policy or not, but you may be best to think of these tracks as a hidden surprise. If it's not got a play button we probably can't play it to you, and if it does come up on your radio it's a pleasant treat.

This is rubbish and never communicated anywhere, so i hope you understand, that we are very upset about this issue at the moment!

Please change it, because you have to communicate the actual situation to new users (no play buttons for streamable content) the same as you would have to communicate the new one (different play buttons)!!! So where is the difference???

--akrde (pissed)

Tomahawk Music Player
Last.fm Free Music Player
Playdar Music Content Resolver

[quote][b][user]akrde[/user][/b] said: [quote][b][user]acreature[/user][/b] said: The idea of displaying a different icon for only-playable-on-the-radio might work, but then there are problems with communicating that to users. For instance: [i]what is the radio? Which radios does it appear on? How can I listen to it right now? Why can't I listen to it right now? How does that differ from the regular play buttons?[/i] Most of the answers to these questions lead to disappointment, or a vague feeling that we're cheating you. [/quote] So it seems you thought only about the new users, ok! But should i tell you something: I, as a long-time subscriber, AM REALLY DISAPPOINTED and not only have a vague feeling that YOU ARE CHEATING ME at the moment!!! And i think that many other users are thinking just the same! Now what? [quote][b][user]acreature[/user][/b] said: I don't know if it's official policy or not, but you may be best to think of these tracks as a hidden surprise. If it's not got a play button we probably can't play it to you, and if it does come up on your radio it's a pleasant treat. [/quote] This is rubbish and never communicated anywhere, so i hope you understand, that we are very upset about this issue at the moment! Please change it, because you have to communicate the actual situation to new users (no play buttons for streamable content) the same as you would have to communicate the new one (different play buttons)!!! So where is the difference??? --akrde (pissed)[/quote]

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- Tecfan said...
- Event Moderator
- 4 Mar 2009, 12:24
I'm just going to make a general statement (also so I can follow the discussion in the reply tracker):

For me, it is more important that Last.fm exists, than that some tracks shows up as non-streamable. After all, it is better that these albums at least are available on the radio, than not being available at all. I would hate to see Last.fm going into legal troubles, so in my opinion, it is best to be on the safe side (like now).

If you're into experimental midicore/guitarprocore, you might enjoy my (free) tracks: Tecfan

[quote][b][user]Tecfan[/user][/b] said: I'm just going to make a general statement (also so I can follow the discussion in the reply tracker): For me, it is more important that Last.fm exists, than that some tracks shows up as non-streamable. After all, it is better that these albums at least are available on the radio, than not being available at all. I would hate to see Last.fm going into legal troubles, so in my opinion, it is best to be on the safe side (like now).[/quote]

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- maz35 said...
- Subscriber
- 4 Mar 2009, 12:42
Tecfan said:
I'm just going to make a general statement (also so I can follow the discussion in the reply tracker):

For me, it is more important that Last.fm exists, than that some tracks shows up as non-streamable. After all, it is better that these albums at least are available on the radio, than not being available at all. I would hate to see Last.fm going into legal troubles, so in my opinion, it is best to be on the safe side (like now).
Agreed, personally I kinda think its the labels dumb fault if people think thier unstreamable since they dont even allow a measly little preview. Stil think there should be some way of marking radio availability though but I can understand the points staff members are making. A bad system of showing it would probably result in more of those idiots buying subs without checking what their buying.

Ah well this justifies my policy of tagging and playlisting everything I want to regardless of steaming status.

The Tag Appreciation Society | The Last.fm Mass Tagger

[quote][b][user]maz35[/user][/b] said: [quote][b][user]Tecfan[/user][/b] said: I'm just going to make a general statement (also so I can follow the discussion in the reply tracker): For me, it is more important that Last.fm exists, than that some tracks shows up as non-streamable. After all, it is better that these albums at least are available on the radio, than not being available at all. I would hate to see Last.fm going into legal troubles, so in my opinion, it is best to be on the safe side (like now).[/quote] Agreed, personally I kinda think its the labels dumb fault if people think thier unstreamable since they dont even allow a measly little preview. Stil think there should be some way of marking radio availability though but I can understand the points staff members are making. A bad system of showing it would probably result in more of those idiots buying subs without checking what their buying. Ah well this justifies my policy of tagging and playlisting everything I want to regardless of steaming status.[/quote]

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- acreature said...
- Alumni
- 4 Mar 2009, 13:16
akrde said:
So it seems you thought only about the new users, ok!
I, as a long-time subscriber, AM REALLY DISAPPOINTED and not only have a vague feeling that YOU ARE CHEATING ME at the moment!!!
I'm sorry we disappointed you and that you feel cheated. I understand, and that was never our intention. We don't just think about the new users - pretty much all the Last.fm staff are Last.fm 'power users' too - but they're a useful bellwether for the clarity of a feature or piece of information. If a new user can understand it and construct an accurate mental model of how it works, more experienced users can too.

akrde said:
Please change it, because you have to communicate the actual situation to new users (no play buttons for streamable content) the same as you would have to communicate the new one (different play buttons)!!! So where is the difference???
I don't think these are the only choices available to us; the other option is to leave things as they are now. Tracks that you can listen to on-demand (whether in full or with 30 second previews) get play buttons; other tracks don't. If one of these tracks shows up in the radio then it's a nice surprise; if it doesn't, then you've not lost out on anything or been disappointed. What benefit do you get from knowing that a track can appear on the radio? It might not ever get played, depending on the whims of the track selection algorithms.

In summary: it is better for us to under-promise and over-deliver than the other way around.

[quote][b][user]acreature[/user][/b] said: [quote][b][user]akrde[/user][/b] said: So it seems you thought only about the new users, ok! I, as a long-time subscriber, AM REALLY DISAPPOINTED and not only have a vague feeling that YOU ARE CHEATING ME at the moment!!![/quote] I'm sorry we disappointed you and that you feel cheated. I understand, and that was never our intention. We don't just think about the new users - pretty much all the Last.fm staff are Last.fm 'power users' too - but they're a useful bellwether for the clarity of a feature or piece of information. If a new user can understand it and construct an accurate mental model of how it works, more experienced users can too. [quote][b][user]akrde[/user][/b] said: Please change it, because you have to communicate the actual situation to new users (no play buttons for streamable content) the same as you would have to communicate the new one (different play buttons)!!! So where is the difference???[/quote] I don't think these are the only choices available to us; the other option is to leave things as they are now. Tracks that you can listen to on-demand (whether in full or with 30 second previews) get play buttons; other tracks don't. If one of these tracks shows up in the radio then it's a nice surprise; if it doesn't, then you've not lost out on anything or been disappointed. What benefit do you get from knowing that a track can appear on the radio? It might not ever get played, depending on the whims of the track selection algorithms. In summary: it is better for us to under-promise and over-deliver than the other way around. [/quote]

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- akrde said...
- Subscriber
- 4 Mar 2009, 13:22
Russ said:
No, as far as I know there's no reason why we can't show you whether tracks are available on the radio, it's just a case of conveying this information in a meaningful and easy to understand way which, as you imply, is a bit of a minefield.

When i read this then there are no licensing issues for showing us if a track is streamable or not!

So why not just show unstreamable tracks in a red color, as Spotify is doing it:

???

By the way: It's optional in Spotify and you can turn it off if you don't like it - Spotify did it very well here again!

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[quote][b][user]akrde[/user][/b] said: [quote][b][user]Russ[/user][/b] said: No, as far as I know there's no reason why we can't show you whether tracks are available on the radio, it's just a case of conveying this information in a meaningful and easy to understand way which, as you imply, is a bit of a minefield. [/quote] When i read this then there are no licensing issues for showing us if a track is streamable or not! So why not just show unstreamable tracks in a red color, as Spotify is doing it: [img]http://i41.tinypic.com/2lw2m54.jpg[/img] ??? By the way: It's optional in Spotify and you can turn it off if you don't like it - Spotify did it very well here again![/quote]

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- DriveThruElvis said...
- User
- 4 Mar 2009, 13:34
I do understand both the "principle of least surprise" point of view and the "over-deliever" choice, but there is one thing that you said that I don't actually understand.

What benefit do you get from knowing that a track can appear on the radio? It might not ever get played, depending on the whims of the track selection algorithms.

Tagging, playlisting, arranging tracks is time consuming. While the time you spend on it may seem irrelevant if you are actually a staff member working on the website (or if you are a nerdy kind of user/subscriber), it actually is time consuming (especially now that you have to confirm anything you tag through these popup windows).
So knowing wether tagging or adding to playlists leads to a result is a piece of information that the user needs. Hence the "alternative icon" advice - yeah, I reckon that putting a play button of some alternative coluor would be misleating. What about the headphone icon as proposed above... or maybe it could work the other way round: pretty much as you used to have a message stating "this artist is not available yet", you could have a little icon indicating "this track is not available yet". Maybe it would be less confusing for both old users and newbies.

[quote][b][user]DriveThruElvis[/user][/b] said: I do understand both the "principle of least surprise" point of view and the "over-deliever" choice, but there is one thing that you said that I don't actually understand. [quote]What benefit do you get from knowing that a track can appear on the radio? It might not ever get played, depending on the whims of the track selection algorithms.[/quote] Tagging, playlisting, arranging tracks is time consuming. While the time you spend on it may seem irrelevant if you are actually a staff member working on the website (or if you are a nerdy kind of user/subscriber), it actually is time consuming (especially now that you have to confirm anything you tag through these popup windows). So knowing wether tagging or adding to playlists leads to a result is a piece of information that the user needs. Hence the "alternative icon" advice - yeah, I reckon that putting a play button of some alternative coluor would be misleating. What about the headphone icon as proposed above... or maybe it could work the other way round: pretty much as you used to have a message stating "this artist is not available yet", you could have a little icon indicating "this track is not available yet". Maybe it would be less confusing for both old users and newbies.[/quote]

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- RhYnoECfnW said...
- User
- 4 Mar 2009, 13:42
acreature said:What benefit do you get from knowing that a track can appear on the radio?

A lot of people only tag tracks that they know are streamable.

[quote][b][user]RhYnoECfnW[/user][/b] said: [quote][b][user]acreature[/user][/b] said:What benefit do you get from knowing that a track can appear on the radio?[/quote] A lot of people only tag tracks that they know are streamable.[/quote]

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- fmera said...
- User
- 4 Mar 2009, 13:44
acreature said:
The principle of least surprise
i really wish you hadn't used that to shore up your argument, if you don't rigorously apply it in all ui aspects throughout the site.

The idea of displaying a different icon for only-playable-on-the-radio might work, but then there are problems with communicating that to users. For instance: what is the radio? Which radios does it appear on? How can I listen to it right now? Why can't I listen to it right now? How does that differ from the regular play buttons? Most of the answers to these questions lead to disappointment, or a vague feeling that we're cheating you.
but the greater disappointment for me is that you've not communicated the finer points of these at all, but quietly sat by while misconceptions shared by well-meaning users pervade the forum pages, which is one reason this whole debate erupted out of a seemingly innocuous original post. surely, it can't be that difficult? if some users still don't get it, at least you can say you tried explaining.

I don't know if it's official policy or not, but you may be best to think of these tracks as a hidden surprise. If it's not got a play button we probably can't play it to you, and if it does come up on your radio it's a pleasant treat.
sure, op says "and everyone's happy", which seems to suggest your "hidden treat" idea is true. but now that it's apparent that this was intended all along - and not some forbidden fruit - but not revealed to anyone, everything changes.

we are not amused.

U.G.L.Y. - changing the face of music, one artist at a time.
there are some things pngs can't fix. for everything else, there's pngoptimizer.

[quote][b][user]fmera[/user][/b] said: [quote][b][user]acreature[/user][/b] said: [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_least_astonishment]The principle of least surprise[/url][/quote] i really wish you hadn't used that to shore up your argument, if you don't rigorously apply it in all ui aspects throughout the site. [quote]The idea of displaying a different icon for only-playable-on-the-radio might work, but then there are problems with communicating that to users. For instance: [i]what is the radio? Which radios does it appear on? How can I listen to it right now? Why can't I listen to it right now? How does that differ from the regular play buttons?[/i] Most of the answers to these questions lead to disappointment, or a vague feeling that we're cheating you. [/quote] but the greater disappointment for me is that you've not communicated the finer points of these at all, but quietly sat by while misconceptions shared by well-meaning users pervade the forum pages, which is one reason this whole debate erupted out of a seemingly innocuous original post. surely, it can't be that difficult? if some users still don't get it, at least you can say you tried explaining. [quote]I don't know if it's official policy or not, but you may be best to think of these tracks as a hidden surprise. If it's not got a play button we probably can't play it to you, and if it does come up on your radio it's a pleasant treat.[/quote] sure, op says "and everyone's happy", which seems to suggest your "hidden treat" idea is true. but now that it's apparent that this was intended all along - and not some forbidden fruit - but not revealed to anyone, everything changes. we are not amused.[/quote]

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- akrde said...
- Subscriber
- 4 Mar 2009, 13:46
DriveThruElvis said:
I do understand both the "principle of least surprise" point of view and the "over-deliever" choice, but there is one thing that you said that I don't actually understand.

What benefit do you get from knowing that a track can appear on the radio? It might not ever get played, depending on the whims of the track selection algorithms.

I don't understand that too and it makes me really sad for the same reasons that you are mentioning.

But i want to add another argument for showing if tracks are unstreamable:

Very often we are told in the forums (by staff or moderators) to contact artists or labels, if there is something wrong with the artists/labels tracks or if streamable content is missing.

How should we do that if we can't differentiate between streamable and unstreamable tracks?

Last.fm lives from the massive collaborations of all users (tagging, flagging, playlisting, scrobbling, contacting artists/labels, and so on), so why don't you give us all the information we need to keep up our good work?

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[quote][b][user]akrde[/user][/b] said: [quote][b][user]DriveThruElvis[/user][/b] said: I do understand both the "principle of least surprise" point of view and the "over-deliever" choice, but there is one thing that you said that I don't actually understand. [quote]What benefit do you get from knowing that a track can appear on the radio? It might not ever get played, depending on the whims of the track selection algorithms.[/quote] [/quote] I don't understand that too and it makes me really sad for the same reasons that you are mentioning. But i want to add another argument for showing if tracks are unstreamable: Very often we are told in the forums (by staff or moderators) to contact artists or labels, if there is something wrong with the artists/labels tracks or if streamable content is missing. How should we do that if we can't differentiate between streamable and unstreamable tracks? Last.fm lives from the massive collaborations of all users (tagging, flagging, playlisting, scrobbling, contacting artists/labels, and so on), so why don't you give us all the information we need to keep up our good work?[/quote]

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