Question about Last.fm radio

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- RhYnoECfnW said...
- User
- 6 Oct 2008, 14:19
Question about Last.fm radio

According to this post, and a few others I've read in the past, services like Last.fm don't need permission to play music as a radio stream (obviously they have to pay royalties). If this is true, then could you not add all the music that has been removed recently (not bothered about full-length on-demand stuff), like Metallica, Bloc Party, Madonna, Gym Class Heroes etc. Basically, couldn't you have anything and everything available on the radios?

[quote][b][user]RhYnoECfnW[/user][/b] said: According to [url=http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=327749&postcount=15]this post[/url], and a few others I've read in the past, services like Last.fm don't need permission to play music as a radio stream (obviously they have to pay royalties). If this is true, then could you not add all the music that has been removed recently (not bothered about full-length on-demand stuff), like Metallica, Bloc Party, Madonna, Gym Class Heroes etc. Basically, couldn't you have anything and everything available on the radios?[/quote]

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- Studogvetmed said...
- User
- 6 Oct 2008, 15:46
I really don't think that those rules are all sweeping or can be generalized into every service. See how though that post says that a streaming radio must impose a skip limit, that as the thread ends, it shows that last.fm does not need such a requirement.

Agreements are just never black & white, though I will never pretend to understand any of it or why things are the way they are with Radio/copyright/royalities/agreements.

I won't pretend to understand anything, but even if it was true that last.fm doesn't "need" permission to stream as long as they pay the royalities, perhaps they have chosen to do business different, to get more freedom, agreements, and abilities to offer things to us the listeners. So perhaps them getting permission is part of a bigger plan, but who knows, and I don't know if the staff are actually able to respond to details of their needed agreements or not.

I guess it would come down to just because you "can" do something doesn't mean one "should", but again, who knows.

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[quote][b][user]Studogvetmed[/user][/b] said: I really don't think that those rules are all sweeping or can be generalized into every service. See how though that post says that a streaming radio must impose a skip limit, that as the thread ends, it shows that last.fm does not need such a requirement. Agreements are just never black & white, though I will never pretend to understand any of it or why things are the way they are with Radio/copyright/royalities/agreements. I won't pretend to understand anything, but even if it was true that last.fm doesn't "need" permission to stream as long as they pay the royalities, perhaps they have chosen to do business different, to get more freedom, agreements, and abilities to offer things to us the listeners. So perhaps them getting permission is part of a bigger plan, but who knows, and I don't know if the staff are actually able to respond to details of their needed agreements or not. I guess it would come down to just because you "can" do something doesn't mean one "should", but again, who knows.[/quote]

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- RhYnoECfnW said...
- User
- 6 Oct 2008, 16:54
Only reason I asked is I've noticed the radio service has gotten gradually worse over the past 6 months or so, and it's at the point now where there's really not much point in using it. Does anybody actually know what's going on with Metallica, for example. Their tracks seem to get removed and re-added on a weekly basis. Same thing with Madonna. How can you expect a new user to bother with Last.fm, when all of these huge artists aren't even on here?

[quote][b][user]RhYnoECfnW[/user][/b] said: Only reason I asked is I've noticed the radio service has gotten gradually worse over the past 6 months or so, and it's at the point now where there's really not much point in using it. Does anybody actually know what's going on with Metallica, for example. Their tracks seem to get removed and re-added on a weekly basis. Same thing with Madonna. How can you expect a new user to bother with Last.fm, when all of these huge artists aren't even on here?[/quote]

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- adamzZz said...
- User
- 6 Oct 2008, 17:08
Yeah, I agree. How can Deezer have free listening radio and Last.fm, the biggest music service has so many unlistenable tracks?

[quote][b][user]adamzZz[/user][/b] said: Yeah, I agree. How can Deezer have free listening radio and Last.fm, the biggest music service has so many unlistenable tracks?[/quote]

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- Babs_05 said...
- Forum Moderator
- 6 Oct 2008, 17:09
The whole thing of internet radio streaming is extremely complicated and still being defined. I know you'll have as much fun as I did bending your brain around this: Ars Technica : New royalty agreement leaves Internet radio out in the cold, September 23, 2008. (I've been away a couple of weeks so I've yet to find out what the latest is.)

The issue of needing permission or not is another thorn in the side of Last.fm. Some argue permission IS required. There's a big stink about all this right now. Where maybe they 'allowed' Last.fm to use their back catalogue in the past, now they see how well Last.fm is doing, they want to do the same. Actually they're trying to do better but whether they'll succeed or not is another matter. You're going to start seeing "create your own playlists" on new sites now. They'll be owned by the majors and full of crap pop and crap rock, as per usual. New York Times : Major labels to offer free music streaming, September 17, 2008

Central Point Albums 11 Music To Fall Asleep To Next Big Things - NBTs
Nov 11 | Reco of the Week - Jon Kennedy – The Goose Is Getting Fat

[quote][b][user]Babs_05[/user][/b] said: The whole thing of internet radio streaming is extremely complicated and still being defined. I know you'll have as much fun as I did bending your brain around this: [url=http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080923-new-royalty-agreement-leaves-internet-radio-out-in-the-cold.html]Ars Technica : New royalty agreement leaves Internet radio out in the cold, September 23, 2008[/url]. (I've been away a couple of weeks so I've yet to find out what the latest is.) The issue of needing permission or not is another thorn in the side of Last.fm. Some argue permission IS required. There's a big stink about all this right now. Where maybe they 'allowed' Last.fm to use their back catalogue in the past, now they see how well Last.fm is doing, they want to do the same. Actually they're trying to do better but whether they'll succeed or not is another matter. You're going to start seeing "create your own playlists" on new sites now. They'll be owned by the majors and full of crap pop and crap rock, as per usual. [url=http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/09/16/technology/myspace.php]New York Times : Major labels to offer free music streaming, September 17, 2008[/url][/quote]

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- adamzZz said...
- User
- 6 Oct 2008, 17:13
I understand these greedy major labels, but I'm quite surprised about the indies. They should promote indie music by adding albums and previews to the site in my opinion.

[quote][b][user]adamzZz[/user][/b] said: I understand these greedy major labels, but I'm quite surprised about the indies. They should promote indie music by adding albums and previews to the site in my opinion.[/quote]

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- Babs_05 said...
- Forum Moderator
- 6 Oct 2008, 17:15
You should look up 'Merlin' in Google and prepare for your jaw to hit the ground.
: /

Central Point Albums 11 Music To Fall Asleep To Next Big Things - NBTs
Nov 11 | Reco of the Week - Jon Kennedy – The Goose Is Getting Fat

[quote][b][user]Babs_05[/user][/b] said: You should look up 'Merlin' in Google and prepare for your jaw to hit the ground. : /[/quote]

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- adamzZz said...
- User
- 6 Oct 2008, 17:17
Well, I see a Polish internet shop. :P

[quote][b][user]adamzZz[/user][/b] said: Well, I see a Polish internet shop. :P[/quote]

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- Babs_05 said...
- Forum Moderator
- 6 Oct 2008, 17:20
haha! no, not that. not abracadabra either. here: http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080505-fifth-major-merlin-signs-12000-indie-labels-eyes-myspace.html

I'll try and find something more informative but this should set you on the right road.

Central Point Albums 11 Music To Fall Asleep To Next Big Things - NBTs
Nov 11 | Reco of the Week - Jon Kennedy – The Goose Is Getting Fat

[quote][b][user]Babs_05[/user][/b] said: haha! no, not that. not abracadabra either. here: http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080505-fifth-major-merlin-signs-12000-indie-labels-eyes-myspace.html I'll try and find something more informative but this should set you on the right road.[/quote]

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- Babs_05 said...
- Forum Moderator
- 6 Oct 2008, 17:24
Merlin sounds all good and lovely, doesn't it? They're as heavy-handed and greedy as all the other majors. They're one of the reasons Last.fm is up the spout this year.

Central Point Albums 11 Music To Fall Asleep To Next Big Things - NBTs
Nov 11 | Reco of the Week - Jon Kennedy – The Goose Is Getting Fat

[quote][b][user]Babs_05[/user][/b] said: Merlin sounds all good and lovely, doesn't it? They're as heavy-handed and greedy as all the other majors. They're one of the reasons Last.fm is up the spout this year. [/quote]

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- girl_from_oz said...
- User
- 6 Oct 2008, 17:27
I know why Warner's stuff went, what confuses me is a couple of weeks ago a lot of it came back be it as only previews then last Friday it all went again along with a lot of other Warner songs like boys don't cry but The Cure and all the Depeche Mode remasters but it's only only the warner's stuff but several Bob Dylan songs, most of the Ting Tings album and the Hairspray soundtrack, none of those are Warner's.

I noticed that none of this music vanished until cbs brought lastfm, not that i'm blaming anyone inparticular but I have seen this before

http://www.last.fm/group/up+and+coming+music

[quote][b][user]girl_from_oz[/user][/b] said: I know why Warner's stuff went, what confuses me is a couple of weeks ago a lot of it came back be it as only previews then last Friday it all went again along with a lot of other Warner songs like boys don't cry but The Cure and all the Depeche Mode remasters but it's only only the warner's stuff but several Bob Dylan songs, most of the Ting Tings album and the Hairspray soundtrack, none of those are Warner's. I noticed that none of this music vanished until cbs brought lastfm, not that i'm blaming anyone inparticular but I have seen this before[/quote]

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- adamzZz said...
- User
- 6 Oct 2008, 17:42
Merlin? Gosh, I think that we should say "Bye" to indie music on Last.fm.

[quote][b][user]adamzZz[/user][/b] said: Merlin? Gosh, I think that we should say "Bye" to indie music on Last.fm.[/quote]

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- girl_from_oz said...
- User
- 6 Oct 2008, 17:44
Lastfm need to do something where they can have access to everything like Napster does even if it means setting up a £10 a month subscription fee

http://www.last.fm/group/up+and+coming+music

[quote][b][user]girl_from_oz[/user][/b] said: Lastfm need to do something where they can have access to everything like Napster does even if it means setting up a £10 a month subscription fee[/quote]

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- girl_from_oz said...
- User
- 6 Oct 2008, 17:46
Ahh Merlin is the reason we lost all the rough trade/beggars banquet music it seems

http://www.last.fm/group/up+and+coming+music

[quote][b][user]girl_from_oz[/user][/b] said: Ahh Merlin is the reason we lost all the rough trade/beggars banquet music it seems[/quote]

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- adamzZz said...
- User
- 6 Oct 2008, 17:47
I live in Poland, 10 pounds is a fortune for me. I have to give 25$ for an album, that's ridiculous...

There is also one thing:

I've wrtitten to some indie labels 5-6 days ago. The labels were: Trangressive (about Foals), Asthmatic Kitty (about Sufjan Stevens) and Ba Da Bing! (about Beirut).

They all were shocked that their artists' music is unstreamable and promised to solve it. For now, I only see a song Cassius by Foals back.

[quote][b][user]adamzZz[/user][/b] said: I live in Poland, 10 pounds is a fortune for me. I have to give 25$ for an album, that's ridiculous... There is also one thing: I've wrtitten to some indie labels 5-6 days ago. The labels were: Trangressive (about Foals), Asthmatic Kitty (about Sufjan Stevens) and Ba Da Bing! (about Beirut). They all were shocked that their artists' music is unstreamable and promised to solve it. For now, I only see a song Cassius by Foals back.[/quote]

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- adamzZz said...
- User
- 6 Oct 2008, 17:52
Some nostalgic thoughts from me. Last.fm is the only online service I really like and I'm totally addicted to it. I love this idea, love people on it, I've met many friends here.

I don't understand Warner, Rough Trade, XL or even these small indie labels. Pushing music out of here was a terrible mistake. I lost my respect to these labels.

[quote][b][user]adamzZz[/user][/b] said: Some nostalgic thoughts from me. Last.fm is the only online service I really like and I'm totally addicted to it. I love this idea, love people on it, I've met many friends here. I don't understand Warner, Rough Trade, XL or even these small indie labels. Pushing music out of here was a terrible mistake. I lost my respect to these labels.[/quote]

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- girl_from_oz said...
- User
- 6 Oct 2008, 17:57
Yes Rough Trade an indie level is shocking, oh and oh the irony a band like the Arctic Monkeys who made it famous through the internet no longer have much music to listen to on lastfm, has anyone tried to contact Warner, I contacted Rhino a whileback

http://www.last.fm/group/up+and+coming+music

[quote][b][user]girl_from_oz[/user][/b] said: Yes Rough Trade an indie level is shocking, oh and oh the irony a band like the Arctic Monkeys who made it famous through the internet no longer have much music to listen to on lastfm, has anyone tried to contact Warner, I contacted Rhino a whileback[/quote]

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- adamzZz said...
- User
- 6 Oct 2008, 18:01
I forgot to say that I contacted Domino and 4AD too. No response.

[quote][b][user]adamzZz[/user][/b] said: I forgot to say that I contacted Domino and 4AD too. No response.[/quote]

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- girl_from_oz said...
- User
- 6 Oct 2008, 18:19
Does the fact that the lastfm stuff can't comment about this mean that there are some kind of negotiaons going on

http://www.last.fm/group/up+and+coming+music

[quote][b][user]girl_from_oz[/user][/b] said: Does the fact that the lastfm stuff can't comment about this mean that there are some kind of negotiaons going on[/quote]

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- Babs_05 said...
- Forum Moderator
- 6 Oct 2008, 18:24
Negotiations, legal stuff and probably more. Last I heard, there was a court case pending and Last.fm are not commenting anywhere.

edit: NNME archives - July and August were busy news months. I wasn't around so much in September so I've yet to research that.

Central Point Albums 11 Music To Fall Asleep To Next Big Things - NBTs
Nov 11 | Reco of the Week - Jon Kennedy – The Goose Is Getting Fat

[quote][b][user]Babs_05[/user][/b] said: Negotiations, legal stuff and probably more. Last I heard, there was a court case pending and Last.fm are not commenting anywhere. edit: [url=http://www.last.fm/group/My+Gang/forum/42940/_/309579]NNME archives[/url] - July and August were busy news months. I wasn't around so much in September so I've yet to research that. [/quote]

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- RhYnoECfnW said...
- User
- 7 Oct 2008, 14:14
Don't suppose there's any chance of an official response here, then?

[quote][b][user]RhYnoECfnW[/user][/b] said: Don't suppose there's any chance of an official response here, then?[/quote]

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- Babs_05 said...
- Forum Moderator
- 7 Oct 2008, 16:49
Wouldn't be right to expect one. It's not like any of this is hidden or a surprise. We know they're dealing with it. Let's leave them to it. I'm just grateful it hasn't gone the way of Pandora.

Central Point Albums 11 Music To Fall Asleep To Next Big Things - NBTs
Nov 11 | Reco of the Week - Jon Kennedy – The Goose Is Getting Fat

[quote][b][user]Babs_05[/user][/b] said: Wouldn't be right to expect one. It's not like any of this is hidden or a surprise. We know they're dealing with it. Let's leave them to it. I'm just grateful it hasn't gone the way of Pandora.[/quote]

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- adamzZz said...
- User
- 7 Oct 2008, 17:14
But Babs, it takes too long. I remember that Beggars stuff disappeard in spring 2008.

[quote][b][user]adamzZz[/user][/b] said: But Babs, it takes too long. I remember that Beggars stuff disappeard in spring 2008.[/quote]

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- Babs_05 said...
- Forum Moderator
- 7 Oct 2008, 17:20
I know. Thing I'm worried about is the whole site disappearing, not just content. With any luck, things might start improving now some agreements are being reached. (I'm still catching up on news but this is encouraging: Tech Radar - Digital music ends feud with record labels, 24 Sept ).

btw - if anyone has useful articles, I'd be more than happy to add them to the thread. :)

Central Point Albums 11 Music To Fall Asleep To Next Big Things - NBTs
Nov 11 | Reco of the Week - Jon Kennedy – The Goose Is Getting Fat

[quote][b][user]Babs_05[/user][/b] said: I know. Thing I'm worried about is the whole site disappearing, not just content. With any luck, things might start improving now some agreements are being reached. (I'm still catching up on news but this is encouraging: [url=http://www.last.fm/group/My+Gang/forum/42940/_/463973/1#f7485037]Tech Radar - Digital music ends feud with record labels, 24 Sept[/url] ). btw - if anyone has useful articles, I'd be more than happy to add them to the thread. :)[/quote]

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- Babs_05 said...
- Forum Moderator
- 7 Oct 2008, 17:22
bloody Merlin held up MySpace Music too! b*******! http://blog.wired.com/music/2008/09/myspace-launche.html Give some indie hipsters a bit of responsibility... grrr

Central Point Albums 11 Music To Fall Asleep To Next Big Things - NBTs
Nov 11 | Reco of the Week - Jon Kennedy – The Goose Is Getting Fat

[quote][b][user]Babs_05[/user][/b] said: bloody Merlin held up MySpace Music too! b*******! http://blog.wired.com/music/2008/09/myspace-launche.html Give some indie hipsters a bit of responsibility... grrr[/quote]

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