• yo beelz, can u rec me some of the 60s-y 80s hard bop.

    Quoth mostly-metal:
    yo beelz, can u rec me some of the 60s-y 80s hard bop.


    Names you want to look for--and some of these may be 80s some may be 90s...and I'm concentrating here on the names, not on specific albums, but we can get into that. I just don't feel I'm the expert in that style (given a choice btw 60s-y hard bop in the 80s & 90s, I usually gravitate back to the 60s-y hard bop of the 60s, but there is some fine, fine, stuff available)

    First up, Kenny Garrett. One of the finest alto players ever. Tony Williams (yes, that Tony Williams) put out some great hard bop in the 80s, with Wallace Roney filling the "Miles" role. So, obviously, you gotta look at Wallace Roney, too, and when you do, look for his wife, Geri Allen, a great pianist, and one from my local area.

    Javon Jackson is a good tenor player, sort of a Joe Henderson, Sonny Rollins type. Of course Sonny and Joe both put out good to great hard bop in the 80s and 90s. The French pianist Michel Petrucianni has a decent output of hard bop. He packed a lot into his 3'6" frame.

    I'd be remiss if I didn't throw a nod to one of the more famous graduates of Art Blakey's Jazz Messengers, Wynton Marsalis and brothers Jason but especially Branford. Forgive Branford his early stint as house Negro on Jay Leno's Tonight Show, Branford Marsalis has a great catalog of music and is an amazing composer. He's probably just behind Shorter and Jarrett in that category.

    I have had arguments with Jason Marsalis about jazz & music in general, and I broke out in a rash over the Ken Burns/Wynton Marsalis aurally impaired Jazz documentary, but in the 80s and 90s, Wynton put out some great hard bop records. Jason's few disks as a leader, after leaving Los Hombres Calientes, are (imo) far better than the Hombres disks.

    So then you've also got to consider everyone who spun off of that axis and the others who surfaced in the neo-bop resurgence: Danilo Perez, Joe Lovano, Kenny Kirkland, Jeff "Tain" Watts, Marcus Roberts.

    Stefon Harris, Steve Turre, Chris Potter, Greg Osby, the whole M-Base crew. Damn. There's a lot I should be listening to, innit?

    jazzoetry is poetry--last poets
    In my writing I am acting as a map maker, an explorer of psychic areas, a cosmonaut of inner space, and I see no point in exploring areas that have already been thoroughly surveyed--William S. Burroughs
  • wow, that will do me a while i think. thanks!

    i was going to ask if Tina Brooks - True Blue (1960) () was more on the Boppy side of Hard Bop, but this track, Nothing Ever Changes My Love for You, just have a very Hard Boppy section (to my mind/ears).
    i get the loose drumming, i think, tho im not sure i can imagine or have noticed tight drumming before. its just this trumpet thing sounds so fluttery and muzaky, i want to call it straight Bop.
    everyone knows what im on about and agrees fully - right?

    stab me 'til i cum
    • Jazzdjur schrieb...
    • Benutzer
    • 26. Jan. 2008, 19:08
    Hi!

    I've been listening to Nils Petter Molvær's Khmer for a while now and I like it very much, great album! I also enjoy Jaga Jazzist's albums. Can anyone recommend other bands/album with this kind of experimental electro jazz to me? I've heard that Supersilent might be worth checking out.

    Thanks in advance.

  • Jazzdjur said:
    Hi!

    I've been listening to Nils Petter Molvær's Khmer for a while now and I like it very much, great album! I also enjoy Jaga Jazzist's albums. Can anyone recommend other bands/album with this kind of experimental electro jazz to me? I've heard that Supersilent might be worth checking out.

    Thanks in advance.


    Supersilent is one, Tortoise or one of the Chicago Underground groups (Duo, Trio, Orchestra) might suit, Boxhead Quartet, Isotope 242, maybe Squarepusher (but maybe not). Early Weather Report (up to & incl. Mysterious Traveller). Material's Hallucination Engine album.

    jazzoetry is poetry--last poets
    In my writing I am acting as a map maker, an explorer of psychic areas, a cosmonaut of inner space, and I see no point in exploring areas that have already been thoroughly surveyed--William S. Burroughs
  • mostly-metal said:
    wow, that will do me a while i think. thanks!

    i was going to ask if Tina Brooks - True Blue (1960) () was more on the Boppy side of Hard Bop, but this track, Nothing Ever Changes My Love for You, just have a very Hard Boppy section (to my mind/ears).
    i get the loose drumming, i think, tho im not sure i can imagine or have noticed tight drumming before. its just this trumpet thing sounds so fluttery and muzaky, i want to call it straight Bop.
    everyone knows what im on about and agrees fully - right?


    Right. I know what your on about. I'll get back to this later with some listening examples to furhter hone your bop v. hard-bop skills, but be warned, there is no ground zero point where you can say--it all changed after this...

    jazzoetry is poetry--last poets
    In my writing I am acting as a map maker, an explorer of psychic areas, a cosmonaut of inner space, and I see no point in exploring areas that have already been thoroughly surveyed--William S. Burroughs
    • [Gelöschter Benutzer] schrieb...
    • Benutzer
    • 27. Jan. 2008, 10:14
    guys i need suggestions about soul jazz records (apart from the most famous ones).

    thank you

    • Cylob schrieb...
    • Benutzer
    • 27. Jan. 2008, 10:23

    Album of the Day

    Miles Davis - Bitches Brew (1970)



    Chosen by sonicster.

    Place albums.

    Secret Snacker & Accomplished Pen Thief At:
  • mostly-metal
    i get the loose drumming, i think, tho im not sure i can imagine or have noticed tight drumming before. its just this trumpet thing sounds so fluttery and muzaky, i want to call it straight Bop.
    everyone knows what im on about and agrees fully - right?


    Tight drumming vs. loose drumming. I'm not sure I completely agree with these descriptions, but I think I know what it means...

    Bop drumming is almost universally credited to Kenny "Klook" Clarke, who played both in swing bands and the "new sound" of bebop. (Although there may be examples of others,) Clarke is credited with adding accents to the beat, which was mov(ed/ing) from the snares to the ride (hi-hat) cymbal. The bebop beat is on the 2nd & 4th beat of the 4/4 time signature, and Clarke kept time on the ride, and dropped in accents (klook-bombs) at unpredictable spots. His drumming, and the drumming of the swing drummers are what would be called tight. The time is kept metronymically and you can count on it, just as you can count on the walking bass.

    A hallmark of bebop was to move beyond the 8th notes to make thrilling runs of 64th notes, which might be the "fluttery" sound you mention.

    Here's a side by side example of how bebop moved to hard-bop.

    First, listen to Charlie Parker, Red Rodney (trumpet and a candidate for your Heroin Songs compilation), Al Haig (piano), Tommy Potter (bass), and Roy Haynes on drums.

    Now's the Time

    Haynes stays on top of the beat, and the "bebop" is in the rapidly articulated passages of the melody. Thousands of altoists spend thousands of hours trying to get to Parker's fluidity.

    Now, 15 years later, we hear Sonny Rollins playing the same tune:

    Now's the Time

    (I don't own this album, but I've listened to it on last.fm) The credits for this album list 4 or more bassists and a similar number of drummers. If I had to guess, I'd say it's either Roy McCurdy or Mickey Roker, both who, like Rollins, started out in bebop, but (like Haynes as well) moved, evolved, transitioned to hard bop.

    The drummer on the latter tune is providing propulsion, pushing the others, and the bassist is freed from walking the beat to provide more depth--Rollins plays with the melody, chopping it up and recontextualizing it, but not to the point where they "play it too darn fast, and change the beauty of the melody, until they sounded like a symphony" (thanks, Chuck).

    Now, for post-bop, track down a copy of Richard Davis's version on Muse records (Now's the Time - Recorded Live at Jazz City, 1972). I know I have it on lp and cd, not sure if it's loaded on my hard drive.

    Richard Davis provides the bass, Freddie Waits is the drummer, Joe Bonner on piano, Hannibal Marvin Peterson on trumpet and Clifford Jordan on tenor. Here, the totally deconstruct Now's the Time and on the lp, just one other cut, Thelonious Monk's Epistrophy (another bebop and hard-bop classic). They stretch a 3-4 minute tune for 20+ minutes, but the melody is still there--the tension they build is amazing.

    The transition from bebop to hard-bop is gradual, and shows the growth of some of the greatest artists in jazz. In 1948, a young Miles Davis plays with Parker, and the large ensemble he (Miles) put together on The Birth of the Cool is completely steeped in bebop and is considered a bebop classic. My own sympathies are obvious when I say it's one of the few Miles records I've ever owned that I've sold. As I said earlier, I'm not a huge fan of bebop. I recognize the innovation, and Parker, Roach, Gillespie, Bud Powell are undeniable giants. But the unison playing and the tight time keeping sound dated to me--I like it when the structure breaks down and the musicians play off the beat, around the beat, and also when the beat itself is more complex. Roach, a bebop pioneer, started incorporating polyrhythms, which Haynes, Elvin Jones, and Art Blakey proselytized to the next generation of drummers.

    I guess I need to add a couple more to the hard bop list now that I've had time to think on it.

    jazzoetry is poetry--last poets
    In my writing I am acting as a map maker, an explorer of psychic areas, a cosmonaut of inner space, and I see no point in exploring areas that have already been thoroughly surveyed--William S. Burroughs
  • beelzbubba said:
    mostly-metal said:
    oh.

    Yeh. You got it now.

    Andrew Hill - Black Fire (1963)
    Art Blakey - Free for All (1964)
    Bobby Hutcherson - Stick-Up! (1966)
    Charles Mingus - Blues & Roots (1960)
    Charles Tolliver - The Ringer (1969)
    Curtis Fuller - Boss of the Soul Stream Trombone (1960)
    Elvin Jones/Jimmy Garrison Sextet - Illumination! (1964)
    Eric Dolphy - At the Five Spot, Vol. 2 (1964)
    Jackie McLean - Destination Out! (1963)
    Joe Henderson - Inner Urge (1964)
    John Coltrane - Giant Steps (1959)
    Johnny Griffin - A Blowin' Session (1957)
    Lee Morgan - Search for the New Land (1964)
    Rahsaan Roland Kirk - Rip, Rig and Panic (1965)
    Roy Haynes - Out of the Afternoon (1962)
    Sonny Clark - Sonny Clark Trio (1958)
    Walter Bishop Jr. - Coral Keys (1972)
    Wayne Shorter - Speak No Evil (1965)


    List: 25 Great Hard Bop Albums, Count: 18

    jazzoetry is poetry--last poets
    In my writing I am acting as a map maker, an explorer of psychic areas, a cosmonaut of inner space, and I see no point in exploring areas that have already been thoroughly surveyed--William S. Burroughs
    Bearbeitet von beelzbubba am 31. Jan. 2008, 1:02
    • vess_csm schrieb...
    • Benutzer
    • 30. Jan. 2008, 8:13
    ok, I'm not so much in to jazz but I'll write a few albums :)

    John McLaughlin - My Goal's beyond
    or Que Alegria

    Django Reinhardt - Django Reinhardt & Stéphane Grappelli

    hope this helps :)

    Shine on...
  • vess_csm said:
    ok, I'm not so much in to jazz but I'll write a few albums :)

    John McLaughlin - My Goal's beyond
    or Que Alegria

    Django Reinhardt - Django Reinhardt & Stéphane Grappelli

    hope this helps :)


    Yep. We'll keep those for our 25 great guitar jazz albums list, whenever that rolls around. Neither really fit the hard bop category.

    jazzoetry is poetry--last poets
    In my writing I am acting as a map maker, an explorer of psychic areas, a cosmonaut of inner space, and I see no point in exploring areas that have already been thoroughly surveyed--William S. Burroughs
  • Recommendation of the Week

    Spaceways Incorporated - Version Soul (2002)


  • how about a '25' Great Jazz Albums of the 00's?

    stab me 'til i cum
  • 25 Great hard Bop Albums

    I've added 3 less than obvious choices, but three that stand as well as any within the genre. Chico leads a pianoless group with Charles Lloyd, Gabor Szabo, George Bohannon (trombone), and Albert Stinson on bass. Hubbard takes a blowtorch to three standards (and lets us catch a breath on two originals, one by Hubbard one by pianist Roland Hanna), and former Mingus sideman John Handy puts together a quintet featuring newcomers Michael White on violin, and Jerry Hahn on guitar.

    Andrew Hill - Black Fire (1963)
    Art Blakey - Free for All (1964)
    Bobby Hutcherson - Stick-Up! (1966)
    Charles Mingus - Blues & Roots (1960)
    Charles Tolliver - The Ringer (1969)
    Chico Hamilton - Man From Two Worlds (1962)
    Curtis Fuller - Boss of the Soul Stream Trombone (1960)
    Elvin Jones/Jimmy Garrison Sextet - Illumination! (1964)
    Eric Dolphy - At the Five Spot, Vol. 2 (1964)
    Freddie Hubbard - The Hub of Hubbard (1969)
    Jackie McLean - Destination Out! (1963)
    Joe Henderson - Inner Urge (1964)
    John Coltrane - Giant Steps (1959)
    John Handy - Live at the Monterey Jazz Festival (1965)
    Johnny Griffin - A Blowin' Session (1957)
    Lee Morgan - Search for the New Land (1964)
    Rahsaan Roland Kirk - Rip, Rig and Panic (1965)
    Roy Haynes - Out of the Afternoon (1962)
    Sonny Clark - Sonny Clark Trio (1958)
    Walter Bishop Jr. - Coral Keys (1972)
    Wayne Shorter - Speak No Evil (1965)


    List: 25 Great Hard Bop Albums, Count: 21

    jazzoetry is poetry--last poets
    In my writing I am acting as a map maker, an explorer of psychic areas, a cosmonaut of inner space, and I see no point in exploring areas that have already been thoroughly surveyed--William S. Burroughs
    • a_n_a schrieb...
    • Benutzer
    • 31. Jan. 2008, 17:49
    hi.
    i'd like to listen to some jazz but it's all new to me so if someone could recommend me what artist are good for a noob, what should i start with? :)

  • Andrew Hill - Black Fire (1963)
    Art Blakey - Free for All (1964)
    Bobby Hutcherson - Stick-Up! (1966)
    Charles Mingus - Blues & Roots (1960)
    Charles Tolliver - The Ringer (1969)
    Chico Hamilton - Man From Two Worlds (1962)
    Curtis Fuller - Boss of the Soul Stream Trombone (1960)
    Elvin Jones/Jimmy Garrison Sextet - Illumination! (1964)
    Eric Dolphy - At the Five Spot, Vol. 2 (1964)
    Freddie Hubbard - The Hub of Hubbard (1969)
    Jackie McLean - Destination Out! (1963)
    Joe Henderson - Inner Urge (1964)
    John Coltrane - Giant Steps (1959)
    John Handy - Live at the Monterey Jazz Festival (1965)
    Johnny Griffin - A Blowin' Session (1957)
    Lee Morgan - Search for the New Land (1964)
    Ornette Coleman - Change of the Century (1960)
    Rahsaan Roland Kirk - Rip, Rig and Panic (1965)
    Roy Haynes - Out of the Afternoon (1962)
    Sonny Clark - Sonny Clark Trio (1958)
    Walter Bishop Jr. - Coral Keys (1972)
    Wayne Shorter - Speak No Evil (1965)

    List: 25 Great Hard Bop Albums, Count: 22

    stab me 'til i cum
  • Andrew Hill - Black Fire (1963)
    Art Blakey - Free for All (1964)
    Bobby Hutcherson - Stick-Up! (1966)
    Booker Ervin - Setting the Pace (1965)(if you get the most recent CD release, you get Setting the Pace plus most of The Trance, Ervin's next record)
    Charles Mingus - Blues & Roots (1960)
    Charles Tolliver - The Ringer (1969)
    Chico Hamilton - Man From Two Worlds (1962)
    Curtis Fuller - Boss of the Soul Stream Trombone (1960)
    Elvin Jones/Jimmy Garrison Sextet - Illumination! (1964)
    Eric Dolphy - At the Five Spot, Vol. 2 (1964)
    Freddie Hubbard - The Hub of Hubbard (1969)
    Jackie McLean - Destination Out! (1963)
    Joe Henderson - Inner Urge (1964)
    John Coltrane - Giant Steps (1959)
    John Handy - Live at the Monterey Jazz Festival (1965)
    Johnny Griffin - A Blowin' Session (1957)
    Lee Morgan - Search for the New Land (1964)
    Ornette Coleman - Change of the Century (1960)
    Rahsaan Roland Kirk - Rip, Rig and Panic (1965)
    Roy Brooks - The Free Slave (1970)
    Roy Haynes - Out of the Afternoon (1962)
    Sonny Clark - Sonny Clark Trio (1958)
    Walter Bishop Jr. - Coral Keys (1972)
    Wayne Shorter - Speak No Evil (1965)
    Woody Shaw - Blackstone Legacy (1970)

    List: 25 Great Hard Bop Albums, Count: 25

    jazzoetry is poetry--last poets
    In my writing I am acting as a map maker, an explorer of psychic areas, a cosmonaut of inner space, and I see no point in exploring areas that have already been thoroughly surveyed--William S. Burroughs
    Bearbeitet von beelzbubba am 1. Feb. 2008, 11:54
    • [Gelöschter Benutzer] schrieb...
    • Benutzer
    • 1. Feb. 2008, 11:15
    mostly-metal ha detto:
    how about a '25' Great Jazz Albums of the 00's?


    right!

    we need the top 25 of 00s

    who starts?

    • Cylob schrieb...
    • Benutzer
    • 1. Feb. 2008, 16:48
    a_n_a said:
    hi.
    i'd like to listen to some jazz but it's all new to me so if someone could recommend me what artist are good for a noob, what should i start with? :)

    I guess Miles Davis would be a good starting point.

    Try "Kind of Blue"


    Secret Snacker & Accomplished Pen Thief At:
    • Cylob schrieb...
    • Benutzer
    • 1. Feb. 2008, 16:48

    Album of the Day

    Arthur Blythe - Lenox Avenue Breakdown (1978)



    Chosen by madcap44.

    Place albums.

    Secret Snacker & Accomplished Pen Thief At:
    • Cylob schrieb...
    • Benutzer
    • 1. Feb. 2008, 17:17
    Secret Snacker & Accomplished Pen Thief At:
  • Jazzdjur said:
    Hi!

    I've been listening to Nils Petter Molvær's Khmer for a while now and I like it very much, great album! I also enjoy Jaga Jazzist's albums. Can anyone recommend other bands/album with this kind of experimental electro jazz to me? I've heard that Supersilent might be worth checking out.

    Thanks in advance.


    I thought I answered this somewhere, but can't find my post...sure, Supersilent is one. I'm not familiar with Nils Petter Molvær. but Jaga Jazzist I know.

    You might like Burnt Friedman either "as himself" or under some of his other names, Drone or Flanger. His recent band Burnt Friedman & the Nu Dub Players have some stuff out, and BF recorded also with Jaki Liebezeit from CAN, which of course leads me to recommend CAN as well.

    We're in an in-between world of Jazz here, one mixed with electronica (not my strong suit) and progressive jazz. Some older stuff to check out in the prog jazz area would be Embryo, Association P.C., Soft Machine (from maybe #3 or 4 onward--the first ones are great, but more prog rock in my book).

    Recent folks would include (or might include) Squarepusher and Amon Tobin. I think some of the younger people here can give you better advice. These are just some of the ones I've heard that fit in with Jaga Jazzist.

    jazzoetry is poetry--last poets
    In my writing I am acting as a map maker, an explorer of psychic areas, a cosmonaut of inner space, and I see no point in exploring areas that have already been thoroughly surveyed--William S. Burroughs
  • Cylob said:
    a_n_a said:
    hi.
    i'd like to listen to some jazz but it's all new to me so if someone could recommend me what artist are good for a noob, what should i start with? :)

    I guess Miles Davis would be a good starting point.

    Try "Kind of Blue"



    & Billie Holiday - she was among the initial jazz artists I'd heard & liked.

  • madcap44 said:
    guys i need suggestions about soul jazz records (apart from the most famous ones).

    thank you
    (answered off thread)

    Yes it's tough to break things into neat genres that don't bleed across lines, isn't it? I, too am Free-jazz & post-bop but there are many soul jazz outings that have such great musicians and the players are from hard bop & post bop traditions. Ten to 15 to start? These are widely varied but all have some redeeming qualities. In no particular order, other than from the top of my feeble mind, and bearing in mind that you already know the majors:

    Lonnie Liston Smith - Astral Traveling
    Henry Franklin - The Skipper
    Rudolph Johnson - Spring Rain (these last two were on the Black Jazz label--most anything on Black Jazz would qualify for soul jazz, I think)
    Les McCann - Layers
    Cannonball Adderley - Black Messiah
    Weldon Irvine - Liberated Brother
    Gary Bartz - Juju Street Songs
    Bishop Norman Williams & the One Mind Experience - self-titled
    Charles Earland - Leaving This Planet
    Longineau Parsons - Spaced: Collected Works
    Phil Ranelin - Vibes from the Tribe
    Maulawi Nuruddin - Maulawi
    Phil Upchurch - Darkness, Darkness
    Catalyst - Perception


    That's 14--Also, there were a lot of CTI recordings in the early 70s (Freddie Hubbard's Red Clay) that were solidly on the soul-jazz side of things, Deodato, Hubert Laws, George Benson. These are a little bit smoother (not the Hubbard) and so I wouldn't put them in the first group for a free jazz brother.

    jazzoetry is poetry--last poets
    In my writing I am acting as a map maker, an explorer of psychic areas, a cosmonaut of inner space, and I see no point in exploring areas that have already been thoroughly surveyed--William S. Burroughs
    • Cylob schrieb...
    • Benutzer
    • 1. Feb. 2008, 19:02

    Album of the Day

    Horace Silver - Horace Silver and the Jazz Messengers (1955)



    Chosen by Cylob.

    Place albums.

    Secret Snacker & Accomplished Pen Thief At:
Anonyme Benutzer dürfen keine Beiträge schreiben. Bitte log dich ein oder registriere dich, um Beiträge in den Foren schreiben zu können.